The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used

[Logan Hartke]

Yeah, but the Kfir is still fine.  What matters is that the basic airframe (the Mirage III/5) first flew before 1970.  The initial Kfirs were even converted Mirages.  It doesn't matter if the production ran past 1970, as long as it wasn't still going after 1990.

Basically, the idea of the treaty would be an attempt to keep your opponent obsolete, weak, and vulnerable.  As the new defense minister, your job is to prevent just that, with violating the treaty.  The question is, can you?  Is it too much?

Cheers,

Logan

[dy031101]

To nitpick, An-12 is on the same boat as the MiG-21 (in production with the PRC as the Y-8).

[Logan Hartke]

To nitpick, An-12 is on the same boat as the MiG-21 (in production with the PRC as the Y-8).

Nitpick away.  That was a typo on my part.  I meant An-22.  Like I said above that list, An-12 should be disqualified for the very reason you mentioned.

I think the whole MiG-21, An-12, and Tu-16 lines should be taken out because they were still being upgraded and produced by China long after 1990.

Cheers,

Logan

[ysi_maniac]

Let me try with Fighter/Bombers bttb:

Boeing Enhanced Phantom: taking airframes from USAF surplus: equiped with AMRAAMs
Mirage III NG
The Mirage F1 you include a pic (beautiful camo BTW)
Saab Draken powered by J-79

IMO they would make a acredible Air Force even for today's standards.

[Logan Hartke]

That's what I'm talking about.

I think a Super Phantom 2000 would be one of the best fighters you could get in this scenario, though I'm sure they'd cost a pretty penny (not that cost is a huge factor here)!

The Draken is fine, but why not the Viggen?  It fits.  Its production wrapped up in 1990.

The Mirage F-1 is fine plane by any standards and great for this.

That's what we're shooting for here.  Can you make a credible air force in this day and age even with the 40/20 handicap?  I think it takes some creativity, but you could do it.

Cheers,

Logan

[jcf]

The Helis.com Database is useful on the rotary wing front:
http://www.helis.com/database/manufacturer/

[dy031101]

I think that leaves us the C-160 as the tactical airlifter.

Is there to be a dictinction between Bell 205 family and Bell 212/412 family for the purpose of this thread?

[pyro-manic]

Canberras! B(I).8s and PR.9s for all your bombing and recce needs.

[ysi_maniac]

why not the Viggen?  It fits.  Its production wrapped up in 1990.

Well, I am a whif maniac. I do not know about any program to upgrade Viggen, in a some cool way.

[dy031101]

When did the production of Harbin H-5 last until?

I'm thinking...... that avionics and weapons testbed meant to benefit the JH-7 development...... 

[Logan Hartke]

I think that leaves us the C-160 as the tactical airlifter.

I agree that that's one of the few really good ones.  There's also the DHC-5 Buffalo on the lighter end and the Argosy for the slightly heavier end.  The C-141, Belfast, An-22, and C-5 Galaxy.

Is there to be a dictinction between Bell 205 family and Bell 212/412 family for the purpose of this thread?

Not in my opinion.  Certain variants of the two are more similar than not.

There've been some good ones mentioned so far.

Cheers,

Logan

[fallenphoenix]

For fighters I'd say the F-4 is as good as its going to get, however as mentioned earlier they may be a bit costly so perhaps a high low mix of F-4's and F-104S, or F-5's simillarly upgraded.
As for Strike A-4's for light attack and CAS, perhaps A-6's if a heavier punch in desired.

Craig

[Logan Hartke]

The A-4's a major one I was hoping someone would bring up.  The A-4SU would be a smashing light fighter.  Likewise, the A-6F and a similar variant of the EA-6B would be great.

The F-5S or F-5EM are both high on my list for aircraft I want, but do the Azarakhsh and Sa'eqeh disqualify the F-5E, you think?  I don't think I'd call the Azarakhsh and Sa'eqeh "in production" yet, because I think those are mostly assembled from existing parts and production is so low-rate at the moment to be in about the same category as the S-64, Grumman Goose, or DHC-5.  What do you guys think?  As long as we keep the new-builds out of the running, is the F-5E still game?

Cheers,

Logan

[gunfighter]

I should go too for the cheetahs with AMRAAM, ASRAAM, JDAM and paveway IV. I know they produced under 100 examples though... so when you mention production numbers are referred to french deltas generally or cheetahs in particular?. I would need at least 300 to be competitive

[Mossie]

When I first read this, I thought that it was a pretty severe handicap.  Now I think about it more, it's quite possible to get a credible armed forces.  Quantity rather than quality might be the way to go if your neighbours have more modern equipment.  Getting large numbers of any given type might be the most difficult thing, but not impossible.  A hodge-podge of variants would probably be likley, but several nations have done or do that, IIRC Turkey took F-4's from all sorts of sources.

For a recce force, U-2's or the Canberra's pyro mentioned would fit in.  Logan, your suggestion of MiG-25's could add to this too.

If you wanted a command & control system, you could stick modern equipment in a whole host of 60's airliners. 707 & E-3 just about gets in, production of civil variations stopped in 1978.  Military production carried on until 1991 although most of these were conversions of civil aircraft.  727, Comet, BAC-111, Tu-134, could all be upgraded as either transports or spooks.

One that surprised me is that the Tu-22 Blinder sneaks in under the weight limit.

When I first read this, I thought that it was a pretty severe handicap.  Now I think about it more, it's quite possible to get a credible armed forces.  Quantity rather than quality might be the way to go if your neighbours have more modern equipment.  Getting large numbers of any given type might be the most difficult thing, but not impossible.  A hodge-podge of variants would probably be likley, but several nations have done or do that, IIRC Turkey took F-4's from all sorts of sources.

For a recce force, U-2's, RA-5's or the Canberra's pyro mentioned would fit in.  Logan, your suggestion of MiG-25's could add to this too.

If you wanted a command & control system, you could stick modern equipment in a whole host of 60's airliners. 707 & E-3 just about gets in, production of civil variations stopped in 1978.  Military production carried on until 1991 although most of these were conversions of civil aircraft.  727, Comet, BAC-111, Tu-134 & plenty of others could all be upgraded as either transports or spooks.

Fokker Freindship/Troopship would fit, Dash 7 too.  The Andover/HS 748 would work too, I thought the BAe ATP might render it inelligible but it was pretty much thought of as a new aircraft.

One that surprised me is that the Tu-22 Blinder sneaks in under the weight limit.  This thread definately gets you thinking Logan!