The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used

[Weaver]

The Viggen occured to me too: strike, fighter and recce types all on one airframe, and most of them retired on repalcement grounds rather than wear and tear. The Swedes upgraded a couple of squadrons to JAS-37 standard whilst waiting for Gripens: no reason that program couldn't have extended to another 100 airframes at least.

IAI were offering a Kfir C10 with an afterburning F404 for a while, but got no takers. That would be an excellent partner to an A4SUKahu with dry F404 and APG-66. With an Elta 2022 radar on the Kfir, you could carry Derby AAMs...

Mossie: Pakistan took Mirages from all over the place in much the same way as Turkey took Phantoms.

[ChernayaAkula]

Very, very cool idea, Logan! Some, no, a lot of my favourite aircraft are from that era.

[Logan Hartke]

When I first read this, I thought that it was a pretty severe handicap.  Now I think about it more, it's quite possible to get a credible armed forces.  Quantity rather than quality might be the way to go if your neighbours have more modern equipment.  Getting large numbers of any given type might be the most difficult thing, but not impossible.  A hodge-podge of variants would probably be likley, but several nations have done or do that, IIRC Turkey took F-4's from all sorts of sources.

Quantity might be one solution, but a better way to think about this would be like a modern equivalent of Finland in the Winter War.  Outdated equipment but good, reliable equipment put to good use, upgraded as necessary, and--most importantly--handled well.

For a recce force, U-2's, RA-5's or the Canberra's pyro mentioned would fit in.  Logan, your suggestion of MiG-25's could add to this too.

All very good, but you've forgotten the greatest spy plane of all time.  The SR-71 qualifies.

If you wanted a command & control system, you could stick modern equipment in a whole host of 60's airliners. 707 & E-3 just about gets in, production of civil variations stopped in 1978.  Military production carried on until 1991 although most of these were conversions of civil aircraft.  727, Comet, BAC-111, Tu-134 & plenty of others could all be upgraded as either transports or spooks.

That's one thing that I was trying to determine.  When was the last new-build 707-related airframe built?  I know a number of E-3s and others were delivered after 1990.  The last airframe?

You could convert DC-8s, too.  They'd work just as well, if not better.  They're in far more extensive civilian service currently, so they sure can last (and economically, too).

One that surprised me is that the Tu-22 Blinder sneaks in under the weight limit.  This thread definately gets you thinking Logan!

That is a good one!  I hadn't thought of it.  Thanks, Mossie.  I thought people would like it if they could make it through the lengthy back-story and rules!  It's really simple once you grasp it and think of some examples.

IAI were offering a Kfir C10 with an afterburning F404 for a while, but got no takers. That would be an excellent partner to an A4SUKahu with dry F404 and APG-66. With an Elta 2022 radar on the Kfir, you could carry Derby AAMs...

Don't forget, the A-6F would compliment those well, too.

Cheers,

Logan

[Ed S]

I can see some F-8 Crusaders getting new engines and AMRAAM capability.  Or perhaps some F-104's modified into Lancers, CL1200.  Maybe reengined F-84's with Lantirn pods for N/AW attack.

Sounds like some fun possiblities.

Ed

[philp]

If airframes, armor, etc has to fit the rules, wouldn't munitions, powerplants, etc also have to conform?

[Logan Hartke]

If airframes, armor, etc has to fit the rules, wouldn't munitions, powerplants, etc also have to conform?

No, the age restrictions were inspired by the naval regulations placed on Germany after WWI.  It's forcing them to stick with old hulls/chassis/airframes.  It would be to difficult to monitor components.

It's also far more difficult and less fun to play using those restrictions, as well.

Cheers,

Logan

[Bryan H.]

OK, I'll play...

First of all I want to maximize the airframes with the best engines and electronics.  Since we're servicing older airframes, I'd want a limited number of different types of modern engines to simplify logistics and reduce engine maintenance.  I'll try to compensate for possibly excessive maintenance on the older airframes by using "low" maintenance modern engines.

Engines (for the bulk of the force) I'll settle on are the GE F414, PW1120 and GE F110.  When the next decade rolls over we will be ready for F-14D's & A-10's.

A-4's: buy up all A-4M's, A-4N's, OA-4M's and many TA-4J's as soon as the USMC, USN & Israelis retire them.  This should yield about 275 single seat, late production A-4's and 50 two seaters.  Run them through an upgrade program centered on F414 engines & APG-66s and other Kahu/A-4SU upgrades.  These upgraded A-4 Super Skyhawks would be the backbone of the Air Forces.  They will primarily tasked of light fighter/attack, precision strike and CAS missions. 

Mirage F.1: buy up 125 late production Mirage F.1's.  110 single seat and 15 two seaters.  Run them through an upgrade program centered on PW1120 engines & RDY400 and other Mirage F.1 & Mirage F.1CT upgrades proposed (and done) for French, Moroccan and Spanish aircraft.  They will primarily tasked of light multi-role fighter, and fighter interceptor missions.

A-7's: buy up 50 A-7D's and 10 TA-7K's.  Run them through an A-7F type upgrade program centered on F110 engines & other A-7F upgrades proposed.  They will primarily tasked of medium attack fighter, precision strike and interdiction missions.

F-4E's: buy up 60 late production F-4E's. Run them through a hybrid Kurnass 2000/Boeing Super Phantom upgrade program using PW1120 engines, updated radar and electronics.  They will primarily tasked of heavy multi-role fighter/bomber, precision strike and fighter interceptor missions.

These four will be the main force.  Other types in use are NA OV-10D+ w/ PT6 engines, DHC-5 transports, Martin SP-5 and Lockheed P-2 Neptune not sure how I'll update the last 3 but definitely new engines.

I'm not as familiar w/ armor but I think the Panhard AML-90 should work.  I've always thought it looked like a lotta whup-a$& in a small package.

and Happy modeling, Bryan   
   

[GeorgeC]

Well if the UN is flexible over production marks as well as types we could fly

VC10
Tristar (Rule #1: first flew after 1/1/1970)
Nimrod MR2
Hercules C1 & 3 (Rule #2: the basic type/airframe was in production after 1990)
Puma HC1 (Rule #2)
Commando
Sea King
Gazelle (Rule #2)

and by 2014 add in Tornado and Hawk. (Actually, it's 2020 before they become available and Hawk not even then, since it's still in production.)

Imagine having to fly and support that load of geriatrics, let alone fight any wars

Yeah, again, this kind of what got me started thinking about it.  Thinking about all the old US & UK types still out there.

Cheers,

Logan

Do you work for HM Treasury....   

[gral_rj]

That's one thing that I was trying to determine.  When was the last new-build 707-related airframe built?  I know a number of E-3s and others were delivered after 1990.  The last airframe?

Late 80's, IIRC(1988 or 1989 come to mind, but I'm not sure on that). Last airframe was a RAF E-3D.

Bryan H., I like your proposal. I'm thinking what I'd do, I'll post it later(probably on saturday).

[Merv_P]

How about the Su-15? I haven't read the thread in detail, but I don't think it's been mentioned yet. It fits the criteria, but it depends on whether or not there's a need in a modern air force for an out-an-out interceptor. Another advantage is that there were a number of documented proposals to upgrade it.

[Mossie]

All very good, but you've forgotten the greatest spy plane of all time.  The SR-71 qualifies.

I'd deliberately left it out as I thought it was a bit of a push.  It's a very specialised aircraft & very complex.  I thought the MiG-25 would be a better option if you wanted a very high performance recce platform from a logistics & political wrangling point of view.  If I was Genreal I'd be thinking twice about it if the US offered them.  Fits the rules nicely though.

[ysi_maniac]

Is M60 (the tank) eligible?

[Bryan H.]

Thinking some more about this...

Since I've already bought F-4E's, I'll also go for some RF-4E's and F-4G's.  They will be put through the same engine upgrades as the F-4E's.  The electronics and avionics upgrades will be modified to fit the reconnaissance & Wild Weasel/SEAD missions.

Aermacchi MB.326G: Armed Jet Trainer, I'm not sure of what upgrades these should have.

Boeing 707 based support fleet:  KC-135R tankers, E-3 AWACS, EC-135 Elint/Sigint/EW platforms and plush civvie 707 VIP transport – again for simplicity all will have CFM56 turbofans

S-3 Viking: mostly S-3B variants, but also some ES-3B's.  Keep the TF34's, the planned A-10's for next year will have the same engine.

Fiat G.91R's: This project will be a challenge due to the small size of the airframe.  Upgraded w/F414 (slightly larger than the Orpheus) some "minor" redesign of the fuselage but I'm sure the international monitors won't notice.    Electronics will also be upgraded.

Of course, as mentioned earlier in the thread, due to the geriatric air force's equipment disadvantage, training will be of paramount importance.  Pilots and ground crews will need to be highly trained and skillful.  In addition to participation in UN operations, our air forces will participate in "Red Flag" and other international exercises as much as possible to maintain a "fighting edge."

Also thinking some more,  I think the country really needs a national airline (ie. TAME, Aeroflot or Air Canada), strictly to serve civilian & commercial interests...    Travelers generally like modern current production aircraft – safety considerations you know.  I don't think the FAA or equivalent agencies world-wide would approve of ricketty, ragged-out old planes flying into their airports.  Main types in use will be Boeing 737, CASA CN235 and Pilatus PC-6

and happy modeling, Bryan

[jcf]

The Grumman EA-6B was in production until mid-1991and A-6 production ended in 1990.

[Logan Hartke]

Engines (for the bulk of the force) I'll settle on are the GE F414, PW1120 and GE F110.  When the next decade rolls over we will be ready for F-14D's & A-10's.

A-4's: buy up all A-4M's, A-4N's, OA-4M's and many TA-4J's as soon as the USMC, USN & Israelis retire them.  This should yield about 275 single seat, late production A-4's and 50 two seaters.  Run them through an upgrade program centered on F414 engines & APG-66s and other Kahu/A-4SU upgrades.  These upgraded A-4 Super Skyhawks would be the backbone of the Air Forces.  They will primarily tasked of light fighter/attack, precision strike and CAS missions. 

Mirage F.1: buy up 125 late production Mirage F.1's.  110 single seat and 15 two seaters.  Run them through an upgrade program centered on PW1120 engines & RDY400 and other Mirage F.1 & Mirage F.1CT upgrades proposed (and done) for French, Moroccan and Spanish aircraft.  They will primarily tasked of light multi-role fighter, and fighter interceptor missions.

A-7's: buy up 50 A-7D's and 10 TA-7K's.  Run them through an A-7F type upgrade program centered on F110 engines & other A-7F upgrades proposed.  They will primarily tasked of medium attack fighter, precision strike and interdiction missions.

Fiat G.91R's: This project will be a challenge due to the small size of the airframe.  Upgraded w/F414 (slightly larger than the Orpheus) some "minor" redesign of the fuselage but I'm sure the international monitors won't notice.    Electronics will also be upgraded.

Maybe I'm just not aware of these proposed upgrades, but I'd more likely guess that you're forgetting rule #7.

7. Major airframe/chassis/hull modifications (new wings/hull/engines) limited to actual or proposed upgrades

You can fit F404s to all of your A-4s (I'd recommend it), but I'm not aware of any F414 development work.  I'm also not aware of any proposal to refit the engine on the Mirage F.1 with the PW1120.  I'm certain there was no proposal to put F414s in G.91s.  Just go with the G.91Y if you want more power.  Were there any other re-engining proposals for the G.91?

I know the A-7F had a proposal for the F110 instead of the F100, so that's a go.

...Lockheed P-2 Neptune not sure how I'll update the last 3 but definitely new engines.

How about a variant of the P2V-Kai with T64s?

Do you work for HM Treasury....   

Yeah, sorry to be a spoil-sport.  If I worked for the Treasury, maybe you wouldn't get those!

That's one thing that I was trying to determine.  When was the last new-build 707-related airframe built?  I know a number of E-3s and others were delivered after 1990.  The last airframe?

Late 80's, IIRC(1988 or 1989 come to mind, but I'm not sure on that). Last airframe was a RAF E-3D.

Bryan H., I like your proposal. I'm thinking what I'd do, I'll post it later(probably on saturday).

Thanks.  Welcome, Gral.  I look forward to your proposal.

How about the Su-15? I haven't read the thread in detail, but I don't think it's been mentioned yet. It fits the criteria, but it depends on whether or not there's a need in a modern air force for an out-an-out interceptor. Another advantage is that there were a number of documented proposals to upgrade it.

Sure, that would fit.  I'm surprised no-ones gone for F-106s or Lightnings yet, to be honest.

All very good, but you've forgotten the greatest spy plane of all time.  The SR-71 qualifies.

I'd deliberately left it out as I thought it was a bit of a push.  It's a very specialised aircraft & very complex.  I thought the MiG-25 would be a better option if you wanted a very high performance recce platform from a logistics & political wrangling point of view.  If I was Genreal I'd be thinking twice about it if the US offered them.  Fits the rules nicely though.

I can fully understand that.  I'd give it second and third thoughts, as well.  I just thought it was an option.

Is M60 (the tank) eligible?

Can't think of why it wouldn't be.


I just thought of another good tactical transport that would qualify.  The C-123T Turbo Provider with T56 engines.  I think that and the Transall C-160 are probably the two best tactical transports available in this scenario.  They quickly get a lot bigger (Argosy - not bad, C-141, Belfast, and An-22 - all good, but very big).

The Grumman EA-6B was in production until mid-1991and A-6 production ended in 1990.

Really?  I read that the last EA-6Bs were delivered in 1991-92 but that the production line shut down in 1989 (having manufactured the last airframe then).  If it's 1990-92 then it would be disqualified, but I'd love to nail this one down.

Cheers,

Logan