The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used

[blue520]

Would the Harrier I/AV-8A be ok or is it too close to the next generation Harrier II/AV-8B?  

I don't know.  I'd put it up to the mob.  I'd be fine with it as long as you don't try to do the upgrades to bring it up to that level (new radar, etc).

There were new build Sea Harriers in the 90's which I guess pretty much kills Harrier I?

What I was trying to gauge was is there a far enough gap in design from the Harrier I/AV-8A to the others. But the Sea Harrier may put a spanner in the works. Far as I can gather excluding the changes for navalisation the major airframe changes from the Harrier I to the early Sea Harrier are from the back of the cockpit tub forward, so about 10% (give or take a bit). So it would not be a easy thing to go from a Harrier I to the latest Sea Harrier standard but it possibly could be do able. I am open to correction. Do we have any Harrier gurus out there.

Another way to put what I was asking is, are there three aircraft inside the Harrier family or is it one aircraft with three different types/ development stages.  

For the time being I am going to leave the Harrier in my list until I get a couple more thumbs down on it or a clearer picture. But only Harrier I capped at max Harrier GR.3/AV-8A development (example, no radar).        

[dy031101]

Speaking of self-propelled howitzers, Turkey did some modernisations on their M44 and M52 (amazing, considering it was up-gunned from 105mm to 155mm) self-propelled howitzers, too, if the Geriatric Army had some of either or both in possession (in storage or whatnot).

When did production for the Mi-24 stop?  Did recent customers (like Venezuela) get newly-built airframes or ones assembled from parts already produced prior to 1990?

I was thinking that French AMX-10P can be included in the list of possible APC choices as well until I found out that its production seemed to have lasted into 1994.  Dang......  

blue520's carrier comment made me wonder: would Rule #7 rule out my crazy idea of fitting ex-USN Tarawa class LHA with a minimal angled deck (like some earlier RN CVL retained for service after WWI) and a catapult or two for Skyhawk/Tracker/Trader/Tracer operations?  

Would improvisations be subject to the 40/20 rules as well?  For example, say, take a commercially-available truck for army utility roles at first and then weapons carriers later as well as even guntrucks with bolted-on armour plates and whatnot?

[elmayerle]

Would the Harrier I/AV-8A be ok or is it too close to the next generation Harrier II/AV-8B?   

I don't know.  I'd put it up to the mob.  I'd be fine with it as long as you don't try to do the upgrades to bring it up to that level (new radar, etc).

There were new build Sea Harriers in the 90's which I guess pretty much kills Harrier I?

I thought that strategic assets would be mostly out due to the 50,000lb limit, but there's a few that get in.  I know some have been mentioned, Tu-22, Vulcan, etc, but there others such as the Victor & Valiant, FB-111.  Mirage IV is a definate...

Ah, but the new builds were Sea Harrier FA.2s which had evan less in common with the Harrier GR.1/3 than the Sea Harrier FRS.1 (as I remember, there's an extra bay inserted into the fuselage aft of the wing).  I think an arguement could be made that the original first-generation Harriers would qualify.  A "rules lawyer" could even argue that a radar fit like that of the original minimum-change "Maritime Harrier" would be allowable.

[Bryan H.]

Looking at this challenge more, I'd like to know more about Geriatria.  You said it is about the size of Turkey.  What is the population?  Where is it located - Europe or elsewhere?  What is the climate like; temperate or tropical, mild or harsh?  Is it subject to seasonal extremes or severe storms?  What kind of resources does it have?  Rich agriculture, metals/minerals, oil/gas/coal, forests, diamonds, cultural resources/archeological sites/tourism etc...?  What is the terrain like - mountainous, flat plains, hills, deserts, forests...?  How educated are the people - I'd presume they are as educated & literate as any European or N. American country - is that correct?  How many land borders does it have?  How much coastline?  You said it's relatively wealthy - it sounds like a free market economy in combination with a constitutional republic, democratic political systems and the rule of law - is that an accurate guess?  What are the major exports?  Who are it's trading partners?  

Although military defenses won't be neglected, I'm thinking that these and other factors will might figure heavily in defense planning.  Military equipment might not be the best defense, Geriatria's most effective defenses might be in economic and diplomatic factors - in combination with it's military.

I'll figure these things into Geriatria 2.0

Bryan

[blue520]

Speaking of Turkish armour modernisations, I can see why ysi_maniac was asking if M60 tank was ok a couple of pages back.
Have a look at the Turkish Army M60 modernisation program M60T. New 120mm smoothbore gun + explosive reactive armour + fire control system + 1000 hp engine & transmision + lots of other changes. Very interesting package.

Also General Dynamics offered an upgrade for the M60, the M60-2000 or 120S wikipedia globalsecurity.org. New M1A1 120mm turret + 1200 hp engine coupled to M1 transmission system.

Still on armour but on a different track. Any one know when the last German Marder IFV was constructed new (not modified)?

[gral_rj]

Still on armour but on a different track. Any one know when the last German Marder IFV was constructed new (not modified)?

1975

[jcf]

Really?  I read that the last EA-6Bs were delivered in 1991-92 but that the production line shut down in 1989 (having manufactured the last airframe then).  If it's 1990-92 then it would be disqualified, but I'd love to nail this one down.

According to Intruder: The Operational History, the last production A-6 (of any type) rolled out of the factory on January 31, 1992.

[dy031101]

Now that I remember, didn't South Africa offer a properly armoured and equipped version of turret taken from their TTD (with either a 105mm or a 120mm gun) as an upgrade for the Centurion tanks?

Have a look at the Turkish Army M60 modernisation program M60T. New 120mm smoothbore gun + explosive reactive armour + fire control system + 1000 hp engine & transmision + lots of other changes. Very interesting package.

Also General Dynamics offered an upgrade for the M60, the M60-2000 or 120S wikipedia globalsecurity.org. New M1A1 120mm turret + 1200 hp engine coupled to M1 transmission system.

The Ukrainian KMDB also proposed an upgrade for the M60 MBT, leveraging off technologies of their T-84.

[blue520]

Now that I remember, didn't South Africa offer a properly armoured and equipped version of turret taken from their TTD (with either a 105mm or a 120mm gun) as an upgrade for the Centurion tanks?

The turret of the TTD was a Olifant 1B turret equipped with a 105mm (a 120mm was an alternative installation) and a number of TTD components went into the Olifant 1B to Olifant 2 upgrade. One source I came across had that the 105mm and 120mm gun were fitted with the 120mm being more common. Another stated that the 105mm was fitted and there were plans to fit the 120mm that were later abandoned. I would be very surprised if an upgrade for the Centurion was not offered. The Olifant is a modification of the Centurion and the turret should be a non-problematic fit to the Centurion hull.

The Olifant may cause a problem for the Centurion, Olifant 1 (and the 1 A upgrade) were a rebuild of existing Centurions, Olifant 1 B were newly constructed from 1991.     

[dy031101]

Does anyone know when the PRC's production of Type 69 (which is a derivative of their T-54 copy) MBT lasted into?

Wikipedia claims that production of a 125mm-gun-armed variant for Iraq lasted into 1991, but I'm not sure if those are newly-built or upgraded......

Well just in case anyone is interested in T-54/55......

On the aviation front...... since Bryan H. mentioned the G.91R (which I've liked a lot)...... is there another Orpheus-powered aircraft (transport and such) that can go with it?

[blue520]

On the aviation front...... since Bryan H. mentioned the G.91R (which I've liked a lot)...... is there another Orpheus-powered aircraft (transport and such) that can go with it?

Might be a bit small, the first two prototype Lockheed JetStar used the Orpheus but plans for US production of this engine fell through.

There is the C-119 Flying Boxcar . The Indians used the Orpheus in a jet packet mounted on top of the fuselage, see this page for some photos. This also opens up AC-119 gunship conversions.

Some other aircraft the Orpheus went in to Folland Gnat, Fuji T-1 & Hindustan Aeronautics HF-24 Marut    

If you can pull your self away from the G.91R, there is the G.91Y (67 built) with twin General Electric J85 jets. The C-123 Provider transport used the J85 as two underwing booster engines (C-123K).  Also the F-5 Freedom Fighter & F-5 Tiger II both used the J85, but may be ruled out due to the Iranian Azarakhsh & Saeqeh.                     

[dy031101]

There is the C-119 Flying Boxcar . The Indians used the Orpheus in a jet packet mounted on top of the fuselage, see this page for some photos. This also opens up AC-119 gunship conversions.

Had there been any re-engining proposal for the C-119?

Just in case there simply isn't enough life left for the engines (as the ROCAF, who had affectionately called the type "the Old Hen", experienced after depending on the aircraft for decades).

Yes...... I knew the G.91Y would perhaps be a better choice, but I have a soft spot (however unreasonable as it might be  ) for modern jets that flew with .50 cal. MGs......

[Weaver]

I was thinking that French AMX-10P can be included in the list of possible APC choices as well until I found out that its production seemed to have lasted into 1994.  Dang......  

The preceding AMX VCI wasn't a bad bit of kit and had loads of upgraded weapons options for export like most French armour. It's engine and running gear were common to the AMX-13 light tank.

[Weaver]

I think the MiG-23 is a good option.  It has some GREAT upgrades, too.  It's the swing-wing maintenance issues that worry me, but that's it.  Also, the Indian Air Force crashes with single-engined MiGs worries me a little bit too, but not that much.

IIRC, the Indian Air Force's high accident rate is more a matter of training than hardware. It took them AGES to decide on a proper advanced trainer, which meant that student pilots were going straight from the Iskra to MiG-21Us, which is just too much of a leap.

[Weaver]

Tank-wise, when was the last Swiss Pz.68 built? I remember seeing that RUAG were trying to sell off a load of them a few years back, with very low mileage since a major upgrade.....

Also, is a Chieftain different enough from a Challenger to count as a different vehicle? If so, then there are some tasty upgrade options available: Jordan took a batch of "Khalids" in the late 1970s which are basically a Chieftain with a Chally 1 powerpack and a decent fire control system.