The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used

[Logan Hartke]

The GSh-30-2 or BK-27 would probably be pretty good, too.  They're fairly small, but with quite the punch.

Cheers,

Logan

[blue520]

The GAU-8 on the Skyfox was a bit of dreaming, in reality the combination would be difficult to the point of unworkable. 

With the OF-40 and the Palmaria on OF-40 hull, the last sale of the Palmaria was to Nigeria in 1988 with deliveries up until 1990. So it may be out or just slips in, the production dates would have to be checked (that is may have been manufactured '89 with a long delivery time). But the ability to check that is beyond me.   

Austrian Saurer 4K 4FA APC is in: prototype mid '50s, production end: 1968, 450 built. Question: does the later 4K 7FA (prototype: 1976) count as the same type or not? Anyone know when production of the latter ended - Greece licence produced them IIRC?

Came across the some information on the 4K 7FA. The changes between the the 4FA and 7FA seem mainly to be improved armour, and the same diesel engine and transmission to the SK 105. Greece produced them under as the Leonidas 1 & 2, the last Greek production was in 1997.

If any have info on the light reconnaissance vehicle Cadillac Gage Scout? On one hand I found references to its production up to 2000. But other information points to that only two countries to have taken it up Egypt (112) & Indonesia (26 or 28). With the last deliveries being '87 and '85 respectively. Can I assume 2000 was when major marketing of the vehicle was stopped?   

[jcf]

Problem with using 707s is that the production line was open, building new airframe E-3s, until May, 1991.
Only two E-3s were rebuilds.

Also, the last Vertol 107/CH-46 was built by Kawasaki in 1990.

You ruled out the Bell 205, but how-about the short-fuselage 204 models?, they really are quite different.

Logan, you may want to reconsider 1990 as your cutoff date.

[Logan Hartke]

Problem with using 707s is that the production line was open, building new airframe E-3s, until May, 1991.
Only two E-3s were rebuilds.

Also, the last Vertol 107/CH-46 was built by Kawasaki in 1990.

You ruled out the Bell 205, but how-about the short-fuselage 204 models?, they really are quite different.

Logan, you may want to reconsider 1990 as your cutoff date.

Depends on the sources.  I know some sources start that the production line itself shut down at the end of 1988.  Forecast International is one such source.  I would guess that the last aircraft was delivered in 1990/1991, but the line was likely wrapped up in 1988.  I know helis.com only shows 4 airframes from 1988-1990.  They've built just as many Ki-43s and more Me 262s since 1990.  I'll leave it up to others to decide, but it sounds to me like the line shut down late in 1988 from what I've read and they just assembled and delivered a couple aircraft in 1990 that had already been produced at least a year or two earlier.

Cheers,

Logan

[dy031101]

For vehicles, the OF-40 and related Palmaria on OF-40 hull would be good options, I think.  I know the Palmaria turret was put on the TAM hull, but I don't think that counts, as it's a different vehicle.

But wouldn't OF-40 itself be vulnerable to the 40/20 rules because of the time when its production began (according to Wikipedia, design work was started by OTO Melara in 1977, with the first prototypes ready by 1980- both occuring after 1970)?

Again, how do the rules concern derivatives?  Is the core system (turret and such) factored in or do we concentrate on only the system carrier (like the hull) itself?

[Logan Hartke]

But wouldn't OF-40 itself be vulnerable to the 40/20 rules because of the time when its production began (according to Wikipedia, design work was started by OTO Melara in 1977, with the first prototypes ready by 1980- both occuring after 1970)?

No "40" rule for vehicles.  They just couldn't have been produced after 1990.

Again, how do the rules concern derivatives?  Is the core system (turret and such) factored in or do we concentrate on only the system carrier (like the hull) itself?

No, turrets don't factor, just the system carrier (airframe, ship hull, vehicle chassis/hull).

Cheers,

Logan

[blue520]

One question about the rules, with the "or ships over 1000 tonnes (empty)" and 5 No ships launched after January 1st 1980.
Are armed ships less than 1000 tonnes launched after the cut off permissible?  

Also, the last Vertol 107/CH-46 was built by Kawasaki in 1990.

Do you have a source or a link for the 1990 date? forecastinternational.com have them down as "Kawasaki produced 160 through the end of 1988, delivering the final four units to the Japanese Defense Agency that year".

[Weaver]

But wouldn't OF-40 itself be vulnerable to the 40/20 rules because of the time when its production began (according to Wikipedia, design work was started by OTO Melara in 1977, with the first prototypes ready by 1980- both occuring after 1970)?

No "40" rule for vehicles.  They just couldn't have been produced after 1990.

That means Marders are in. No chassis were produced after 1983: all subsequent versions are upgrades of old vehicles.

[dy031101]

That means Marders are in. No chassis were produced after 1983: all subsequent versions are upgrades of old vehicles.

Can we consider TAM and VCTP of a limited production (according to Wikipedia, production re-started in 1994, but that was primarily to fulfil the original order that was halted in 1983) or of a different vehicle family altogether?

[blue520]

That means Marders are in. No chassis were produced after 1983: all subsequent versions are upgrades of old vehicles.

Can we consider TAM and VCTP of a limited production (according to Wikipedia, production re-started in 1994, but that was primarily to fulfil the original order that was halted in 1983) or of a different vehicle family altogether?

As far as I can gather the brief '90s production was finishing of units in storage from when the original production was halted. Think it would fit no longer in serial production.

[Bryan H.]

Again, how do the rules concern derivatives?  Is the core system (turret and such) factored in or do we concentrate on only the system carrier (like the hull) itself?

No, turrets don't factor, just the system carrier (airframe, ship hull, vehicle chassis/hull).

Cheers,

Logan

In a similar vein, what about the Mk71 8" naval gun?  Although, a prototype was tested, it never went into production.  Any Mk71 guns would have to be new production.  Would new Mk71 8" guns be OK?  To the best of my knowledge, the fore deck of the Spruance class was designed to carry the weight of the Mk71.  If the turret is OK under the treaty, I might see if I can buy a few.

Bryan

[Weaver]

On the subject of naval refits, another question:

Many naval refits of system A for system B are generic, i.e. not linked to a particular ship type. Do these fall foul of the rule that says any upgrade must have been proposed in the real world or not? What got me thinking was the "standard" upgrade of 1 x Exocet MM38 to 2 x Exocet MM40s. Aerospatiale will, in principle, supply this to ANY Exocet user, but AFAIK, it was never specifically suggested for say, an Exocet Leander or a County.

[dy031101]

I am kinda trying to think up a combination as well...... it is and will be a slow process, but here is my Mk.1 list so far:

Air Force

Mirage F.1/F.1B

Cheetah C/Mirage 50 fighterbomber (upgraded with Kfir C.7 nose and avionics, in the same manner as the IAI Finger)/Mirage 50 recce/Mirage 50 conversion trainer

F-4/RF-4 Super Phantom or Phantom II+ (if treaty-safe, with lateral conformal water tanks from the RF-4X design adopted for fuel stowage rather than the centreline conformal fuel tank, which prevents to use of centreline hardpoint)

G.91R/G.91T

Gnat (advanced trainer, upgraded to Gnat II a.k.a. Ajeet standard)

Some turboprop kitplane for basic training

C-119/AC-119 with Orpheus Booster Turbojet

Transall C-160

SP-2H AEW with turboprops and flight avionics of P-2J as well as Searchwater 2000 AEW radar (hope this is enough to support my APG-73-equipped Phantoms)

=========================================

This is the result of an effort to keep the number of jet engines I need to set up infrastructures for to a minimum (PW1120RM8/JT8D, Orpheus, Atar 9K-50, and J34 with the navy's upgraded SP-2H).  That being said, if I start equipping the navy with jet fighters......

The Cheetah and the Mirages are in the list in case my air force is unable to secure enough Mirage F.1 airframes (although I haven't even begun to work out the number yet)...... I kinda made the list with South-African/Israeli/Russian munitions in mind, and the delta-wingeded types are interchangeable with appropriate versions of Mirage IIIEX if, say, I'm going for RD-400 radar as well as RF and IR versions of MICA AAM......

I'm also looking into fitting a couple of RF-4s and Mirage 50s with an extreme-range oblique photographic camera to get as close to a strategic reconnaissance capability as possible...... the Phantom's no problem, but can I consider the Israeli modification of the recce Kfir as suitable for the Mirage III/5/50 under the Rule #7 as well?

Maybe tactical recce RF-4s and Mirages can be replaced with their tactical fighter counterparts equipped with appropriate pods.

Finally, I'm wondering if I can have the Gnats rebuilt to Gnat II a.k.a. Ajeet standard (but of course keeping the two-seater scheme)...... the Indians modified two Gnats as testbeds for the Ajeet- what's the extent of the modifications?

Comments, answers to above questions, and suggestions (well I think that covers every category of replies) are welcomed.

[blue520]

Would it be permissible inside the rules to modify any aircraft with an engine that has never been proposed for that aircraft, that is smaller in length and diameter than the original engines and a proposed modification engine, also the engine it was developed from was proposed as an modification and the amount of changes would be similar. In this case the aircraft in question is the F-4 and I am wondering about fitting F414s to it. The F414 is smaller in length and diameter than the J79, Spey Mk 202 & also the PW1120, also there was a proposed modernisation (McDonnell Douglas) for the F-4 that induced the F404 as one of the options.    

[dy031101]

The F414 is smaller in length and diameter than the J79, Spey Mk 202 & also the PW1120, also there was a proposed modernisation (McDonnell Douglas) for the F-4 that induced the F404 as one of the options.    

I'm interested in the existence of a F404-powered F-4 upgrade proposal......