The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used

[Weaver]

Another issue to think about with F-8 Crusaders: they're made of a special Vought-developed alloy called Metallite and it doesn't like high humidity. Some second-hand aircraft were sold to the Phillipines in the late 1970s, and by 1984, when a Vought team went out to restore them, they were practically falling apart. The Vought team devised a replacement composite material made from local plywood and sheets of a different alloy, but they still didn't last much longer.

Anyway, there's another option. The YA-7F Strikefighter wasn't just a re-engining job: it also had a seriously stretched fuselage and an afterburner, and made Mach 1.6 on tests. That makes it effectively a modern, land-based Crusader: give it a modern multi-mode radar with AI capability and there's no reason it couldn't be a poor-man's F-16.

As well as the F-100-PW-220 powered A-7F, there was also a proposed International Corsair III, which would have had a 27.600lb F110-GE-100, a similar fuselage stretch, automatic maneuvering flaps and digital avionics.

[dy031101]

Here are my two lists so far...... they are incomplete right now and are still subject to change, but I might as well post them now...... I want to balance between a asthetically-pleasing fleet and a practical one (at least as best as I could  ), so comments and opinions are always welcomed as I go.

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For aircraft types, conversion trainers will be acquired where available.

F-106 and Johan Draken in the Mk.2 list clearly each needs a new radar.  Without checking antenna dish sizes, I'd nonetheless think that the new radars are likely to come from either FIAR or Elta......

Mk.1 (doing quite a bit of business with Israel, South Africa, and former Eastern-Bloc):

AAMs include Magic-II (Mirages and G.91), Python 5 (Mirages), MICA (Mirage F.1 and Nammer)

ASMs include AGM-65 (all fighter types including G.91), ARMAT (Mirages), and AM.39 (Il-38)

Aircraft powerplant so far include Atar 9K-50 (Mirages), Orpheus (G.91, Gnat, C/AC-119), NK-12 (An-22, Tu-114/126), AI-20 (Il-38), Dart (Argosy), Artouste (Alouette III)

Air Force

Mirage F.1

Nammer (made system-equal with the Mirage F1; tactical recce capability provided through either aquisition of pods or conversions of a number of airframes into a specialized version)

Finger (these strike fighters, visually the same as the Argentine machines but with a more up-to-date avionics suite and Atar 9K-50 engine, are hopefully the first supersonic fighters to be inducted into the reconstituted air force)

G.91R/4 (strike fighter with a secondary air defense role using Magic II missiles)

Mirage IV (bomber)

There also is to be several examples of a strategic recce platform, which is either a Nammer with an extreme-range camera in place of fire control radar or Mirage IV with an extreme-range camera under fuselage

Gnat (advanced trainer, upgraded to Gnat II a.k.a. Ajeet standard)

Some turboprop kitplane for basic training

Tu-126 (upgraded with Phalcon system)

Tu-114 (some Probe-and-Drogue tankers, others ELINT/ECM)

An-22 (strategic airlifter, if Allied assets cannot fulfil the need of shipping mechanized peacekeepers overseas)

AW.660 Argosy

C-119/AC-119 with Orpheus Booster Turbojet (AC-119 upgunned with 3 BK-27 cannons also used by tactical fighters in a podded form)

Navy

Il-38 (brought to SD standard)

Army

Alouette III Utility

Alouette III Gunship based on Alpha XH-1

Leopard 1 MBT upgraded with T-72M1 Moderna turret and improved hull armour

Gepard AA tank (with Stinger SAM add-on)

Leopard 1 GCT AU-F2 155mm SPH

Leopard 1 TOS-1 220mm Artillery Rocket

M48 Patton MBT upgraded with T-72M1 Moderna turret and improved hull armour

M48 Patton AA tank with Gepard turret (with Stinger SAM add-on)

M48 Patton GCT AU-F2 155mm SPH

M48 Patton TOS-1 220mm Artillery Rocket

M41 Walker Bulldog light tank with CT-CV turret

PT-76 light tank with CT-CV turret

Marder 1A5 IFV

BTR-50M IFV

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Mk.2 (air combat fleet dominated by delta-winged aircraft......):

AAMs include R-60M/KM (F-106), Magic-II/Sidewinder (Viggen, Kfir, Draken), IRIS-T (Viggen, Kfir), MICA (all BVR-capable fighter types except for JA-37), AIM-120 (JA-37)

ASMs include AS.30, AGM-65, RBS-15, BK-90

Aircraft powerplant so far include JT8D (SAAB 37, Mercure), J79 (Kfir), J75 (F/TF-106), Olympus (Vulcan), Avon (SAAB 35), J34 (SP-2H), Tyne (Belfast, C-160), T64 (SP-2H), Artouste (Alouette III)

Air Force

Ordnance-carrying under-wing supersonic tanks used by the Kfir fleet will be tested for use with the F-106 as well

JA-37 Viggen (upgraded to the most up-to-date standard)

Kfir (C.2/C.7 upgraded by French firms to become system equal to Mirage IIIEX, thus featuring F.1-style radome and refuelling probe)

Saab 35 Draken (both the air defense Johan and the strike fighter F.25 models)

F-106 Delta Dart (weapons bay modified to carry R-60 missiles)

AVRO Vulcan

Dassault Mercure AEW (equipped with Northrop Grumman "Top Hat" MESA radar)

Short Belfast (to be used in conjunctionn with Allied assets to ship mechanized peacekeepers overseas due to scarcity of airframes)

Transall C-160

Navy

AJS-37 Viggen (maritime/anti-ship strike type with radar modified with ability to cue WVRAAMs; IRIS-T will be allocated to them first)

SP-2H Neptune (upgraded with T64 turboprops and up-to-date avionics)

Army

Alouette III Utility

Alouette III Airfox Gunship

Pz.68/88 MBT (with proposed upgrade that includes the 120mm gun)

Flakpanzer 68/88 AA tank (with Stinger SAM add-on)

Centurion MBT with Olifant 2 turret

Centurion AA tank with Gepard turret (with Stinger SAM add-on)

Mk F3 155mm SPH (modernised with new ordnances)

AMX-13 light tank with CT-CV turret

Ikv-91 light tank with CT-CV turret

AMX-VCI APC

Pbv 302 APC

[blue520]

dy031101:
MiG-27ML - http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Specs/MiG-27.html has it down as license for 188 MiG-27s (option for 50 more), 165 produced, last aircraft TS-665 delivered March 1997.

"Dassault Mercure AEW (equipped with Northrop Grumman "Top Hat" MESA radar)" is such a modification allowed?
If it is, two other alternatives you may want to think over.
The Ericsson Erieye on the C-160, reduces the number of aircraft types.
Erieye or Top Hat (with a modified support, like the one for the Erieye) on a Boeing 727, JT8D for engine commonality, younger airframes (early '80s rather than early '70s), more than big enough for a full fit out for the Top Hat systems, T-tails seem to be fine with this sort of radar fit (example Embraer R-99), could also have a common type tanker and there is the Super 27 JT8D-217 re-engine if you want a more modern but related engine upgrade.

Olympus - This post on secret projects lists the F-105 as having a Olympus proposal.

C-119 - Another one from secret projects, there was a proposal that did not get past the design phase for a turboprop re-engine using the Allison T56. The T56 was also a used in a turboprop re-engine of the C-123 Provider, which could be an alternative to the AW.660 Argosy, bringing you engine types down buy one. 

[dy031101]

MiG-27ML - http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Specs/MiG-27.html has it down as license for 188 MiG-27s (option for 50 more), 165 produced, last aircraft TS-665 delivered March 1997.

"Dassault Mercure AEW (equipped with Northrop Grumman "Top Hat" MESA radar)" is such a modification allowed?

Yeah, those two (and to a lessor extent, re-engining F-102 with Olympus) are the items I'm kinda awaiting the rule interpretations for but elected to include in the list for the time being.

The one thing I can see against the AEW Boeing 727, apart from getting it and my Mercure proposal Logan-approved  , is the centre engine- the antenna would be in the way of its intake unless you go for an the underfuselage radome, and it doesn't look like Boeing 727 has a lot of ground clearance.

C-119 - Another one from secret projects, there was a proposal that did not get past the design phase for a turboprop re-engine using the Allison T56.

Hum...... the question is the same as the F404-powered Phantom topic- was it seriously studied?  Even though it did not get past the design phase, was the design at least completed, just lacking a prototype?

=========================================

Random thoughts:

Other than Orpheus and J85, J34 was also used as a booster jet for the C-119...... something that might be of interest to some.

Might need a tank to fill up the shortfalls in terms of numerical strengths of my MBTs just in case...... a modified M48?

[blue520]

The one thing I can see against the AEW Boeing 727, apart from getting it and my Mercure proposal Logan-approved  , is the centre engine- the antenna would be in the way of its intake unless you go for an the underfuselage radome, and it doesn't look like Boeing 727 has a lot of ground clearance.

Hum...... the question is the same as the F404-powered Phantom topic- was it seriously studied?  Even though it did not get past the design phase, was the design at least completed, just lacking a prototype?

The thing I see that would be getting in the way for the No.2 engine intake on the 727 in not the antenna but the supports, that is where a inverted V support (like the Erieye supports) coupled with the wider fuselage of the 727 over the Saab340 & ERJ 145, would raise the antenna high enough and provide enough gap between the struts low down to provide a clean flow path.

With the C-119 T56, the link I gave you is all the info I have.   

[Logan Hartke]

As I am still pondering about the choice of my fighters in my Mk.1 list...... I saw a potential trouble for MiG-23, one of my candidates......

The ground-attack MiG-27 was licence-built in India, with deliveries said to last into 1996 (examples after 1988 were built with increasing local content)......

MiG-27ML - http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Specs/MiG-27.html has it down as license for 188 MiG-27s (option for 50 more), 165 produced, last aircraft TS-665 delivered March 1997.

This, in my opinion, counts out the MiG-23 & family.  It's like the Su-27 and Su-30.  Just because they're different designations with different roles, they're still the same basic airframe.  The MiG-23 airframe has been in production after 1990, it's disqualified.

"Dassault Mercure AEW (equipped with Northrop Grumman "Top Hat" MESA radar)" is such a modification allowed?
If it is, two other alternatives you may want to think over.
The Ericsson Erieye on the C-160, reduces the number of aircraft types.
Erieye or Top Hat (with a modified support, like the one for the Erieye) on a Boeing 727, JT8D for engine commonality, younger airframes (early '80s rather than early '70s), more than big enough for a full fit out for the Top Hat systems, T-tails seem to be fine with this sort of radar fit (example Embraer R-99), could also have a common type tanker and there is the Super 27 JT8D-217 re-engine if you want a more modern but related engine upgrade.

I'm fine with the AEW upgrades because you can't live without them, as long as it's not a GIANT (E-3 Sentry) dish unless such a proposal existed.  The balance beam type is fine, as would be a smaller, Hawkeye-type dish on a large plane.  I personally am considering putting the radar from an E-2D onto an Il-38 à la P-3AEW&C.

Olympus - This post on secret projects lists the F-105 as having a Olympus proposal.

Yeah, but who would want the F-105?

C-119 - Another one from secret projects, there was a proposal that did not get past the design phase for a turboprop re-engine using the Allison T56. The T56 was also a used in a turboprop re-engine of the C-123 Provider, which could be an alternative to the AW.660 Argosy, bringing you engine types down buy one. 

I mentioned the C-123T already and I think it's a great option.  That's a good, solid plane.  I'd be more worried about a C-119.  Maybe a few for gunships if you want (although I'd prefer AC-47Ts), but lacking a cargo ramp and with the airframe age, I'd not rate them as might first option.  Also, I wonder...if they never even got past the design phase, did they encounter insurmountable obstacles or was it prohibitively expensive, do you think?  It was seriously studied, so I'll allow it, but I won't go with it.

Anyway, there's another option. The YA-7F Strikefighter wasn't just a re-engining job: it also had a seriously stretched fuselage and an afterburner, and made Mach 1.6 on tests. That makes it effectively a modern, land-based Crusader: give it a modern multi-mode radar with AI capability and there's no reason it couldn't be a poor-man's F-16.

As well as the F-100-PW-220 powered A-7F, there was also a proposed International Corsair III, which would have had a 27.600lb F110-GE-100, a similar fuselage stretch, automatic maneuvering flaps and digital avionics.

Now I think that's one of the best planes you can have in this scenario.  You can put the latest F110 in it, give it a glass cockpit, even have a two-seat variant.  For anything A-G, this should be an awesome, reliable, cheap-to-operate plane.

"Dassault Mercure AEW (equipped with Northrop Grumman "Top Hat" MESA radar)" is such a modification allowed?

Yeah, those two (and to a lessor extent, re-engining F-102 with Olympus) are the items I'm kinda awaiting the rule interpretations for but elected to include in the list for the time being.

Yeah, those are fine with me.  I don't see the point behind the F-102.  Not worth the trouble.  Just stick with Mirages and F-106s if you want to go crazy.  Fine with me, though.

Cheers,

Logan

[Logan Hartke]

What do you all think, Challenger 1, in or out?  Is it too similar to the Challenger 2 or not?

Some vehicles that I like a lot for this are the Strv 103, the Ikv 91, and the Ratel family.

Cheers,

Logan

[blue520]

I am weakly leaning towards out for the Challenger 1. If some one very badly wanted it I would not raise it as an issue, but it would have to firmly fixed a the Challenger 1 development level. Personally I would not choose it.

The Strv 103 and Ikv 91 are great, rather innovative for their age. The Strv 103 was one of the first pieces of armour I looked at when starting out and the Ikv 91 would be a natural partner (also the pbv 302). If the rules included no upgrades on armored vehicle they would probably be one of my first selections.

I looked at the Ratel family and could not pin down a production end date, so I dismissed it as possibly running past 1990. The Ratel ZT3 with the Leopard (Ingwe) anti-armour missile is reported to be rather effective and has been battle proven against tanks. Any suggestions for a replacement of the 90 mm gun on the Ratel 90?      

[dy031101]

I'm inclined to agree with blue520 on the Challenger 1 matter.  Challenger 2 looks and sounds like an improved Challenger 1, but then it's only less than 5% Challenger 1......

Which leads to one question from me.  A question is already raised about the Olifant v.s. Centurion issue...... now, say, I take a bunch of Centurion hulks from various scrapyards, have the Jordanians rebuilding them into the Temsah APCs, and then put the CV90-120 turrets on them...... would the resulting vehicles violate Rule #4?

(That makes two questions to go about the Centurion tanks now.)

I'm fine with the AEW upgrades because you can't live without them, as long as it's not a GIANT (E-3 Sentry) dish unless such a proposal existed.  The balance beam type is fine, as would be a smaller, Hawkeye-type dish on a large plane.  I personally am considering putting the radar from an E-2D onto an Il-38 à la P-3AEW&C.

I was thinking exactly the same thing but using Searchwater 2000 as a backup just in case. 

Yeah, but who would want the F-105?

I probably would...... but it doesn't stir up enough madness in me to consider re-engining. 

I looked at the Ratel family and could not pin down a production end date, so I dismissed it as possibly running past 1990.

Assuming production was never interrupted and considering the industrial capability of South Africa (which I know nothing about), how long would it take to manufacture, say, 2000 Ratels?  If it won't take us past 1990, then most likely Ratel is safe for selection.  

[Weaver]

I'm fairly certain that Ratels were produced after 1990. KADDB in Jordan is still listing it as a "product", but it's not clear if they're rebuilds or new builds.

I'd say the Chally I is in: the II is effectively a new tank with the same name.

BTW KADDB offer a whole range of upgrade goodies. Their low-profile Falcon turret makes the Chally I much more attractive and can be adapted to different hulls. They also do a 120mm RUAG upgrade for the M60.

[Logan Hartke]

I'm fairly certain that Ratels were produced after 1990. KADDB in Jordan is still listing it as a "product", but it's not clear if they're rebuilds or new builds.

I'd say the Chally I is in: the II is effectively a new tank with the same name.

BTW KADDB offer a whole range of upgrade goodies. Their low-profile Falcon turret makes the Chally I much more attractive and can be adapted to different hulls. They also do a 120mm RUAG upgrade for the M60.

I haven't seen anything saying the Ratel was built after 1990.  In fact, while I read that Ratel Mk 3 production started in 1988, when I read far more into it, it seems as if the Mk 2 and Mk 3 versions of the Ratel were both incremental upgrades of the Mk 1 vehicles produced in the 1970s.  As far as KADDB's Ratels listed on the site, those are all the old Ratels that South Africa sold them.  Apparently they sold them about 120 around 2002-03.  From the South African production numbers that I've seen, Jordan can buy up enough vehicles to meet even the largest requests in the future.  If someone has some data showing it was still in new-build production after 1990, that's fine, but I've not seen evidence of that yet.


The KADDB M60 upgrade is fine, but the M60T/Sabra is far better in basically every respect.  I think the KADDB is just aimed at the large market of M60 users that hate Israel.  I like their M60 ARV very much.  If you're going to use M60s, that seems the way to compliment them.


As for the Challenger 1, I would definitely make that my main MBT, equipped with the Falcon turret.  There are a few competitors out there, but it's one of my favorites.

Cheers,

Logan

[Weaver]

You're right about the Ratel. What I was thinking of was this upgraded version, currently on offer:

http://www.military-today.com/apc/iklwa.htm

However it's not entered production yet. It can be produced from re-build Ratels or as a new-build.

That raises an interesting question about the rules: suppose something re-enters production? For instance, suppose Geriatria buys 2nd hand Ratels, but then OMC start producing new Iklwas for somebody else. Do Geriatria have to give them all back? Cancel any unfulfilled orders? What about spares and support?

[dy031101]

This, in my opinion, counts out the MiG-23 & family.

I don't see the point behind the F-102.  Not worth the trouble.  Just stick with Mirages and F-106s if you want to go crazy.

Fair enough.  You know, I'd have liked to consider upgraded MiG-21bis with Analog-144 wings......  

(All references I could find except for Air Vectors website only described the Analog-144 as "built".  Air Vectors described it as "production MiG-21S refitted with new wings, leading me to want to think that the delta wings can be refitted to already-built airframes.)

Anyway, after a day of fine-tuning Mk.1 in my head, I've finally decided I'll need another mark to adequately write up this "Western aircraft with Eastern-Bloc weapons" kind of crazy......

The Strv 103 and Ikv 91 are great, rather innovative for their age. The Strv 103 was one of the first pieces of armour I looked at when starting out and the Ikv 91 would be a natural partner (also the pbv 302). If the rules included no upgrades on armored vehicle they would probably be one of my first selections.

I'd take the Ikv 91...... would its turret ring be able to accommodate the CT-CV turret (105mm gun, indirect fire mode, tested on a LAV-III)?

Any suggestions for a replacement of the 90 mm gun on the Ratel 90?     

Cockerill has a Mk.3 gun meant as a replacement to all low-pressure 90mm guns that came before it.

[blue520]

For main AEW&C/VIP (+non combat) transport/tanker I am thinking of the 727 and wanted to get peoples thoughts on this.
I am looking for a type that may be expensive to procure (but doesn't have to be), is going to last at least 10 years in daily service and is economical to run. Edit: By "expensive to procure" I mean the initial cost are not a major problem if it can last the time to at least 2020.

My thoughts were early 1980's Boeing 727-200 striped down and rebuilt, fatigued and critical airframe sections renewed and a full reskinning. Should give ten to fifteen plus years of further service with out major issues.  
Engines replaced by twin CFM56-5C2 31200lbf engines (proposed re-engine by Volpar Aircraft Corporation, Snow Aviation also proposed one using the IAE V2530) replacing engines 1 and 3, number 2 engine inlet replaced by a fairing and the APU moved to the removed number 2 engine position with a tail cone replacing the exhaust. Seeing the CFM56-5C2 is in use on the A340-200/300 and there is a large CFM56 family it should be economical to maintain, also this conversion was expected to reduce fuel consumption and improve the range by 48%.
Fit winglets and 2 man glass cockpit. Obtain gravel runway kits for the option to use temporary or dispersed dirt/gravel airfields if necessary.

The AEW&C version would use the Northrop Grumman MESA (top hat) radar system, the 727-200 should have enough volume to do a full fit out per the 737 AEW&C.
With the tanker I was planing one refuelling pod under each wing and additional internal tanks as a multi-role tanker transport. Similar in concept to the Airbus A310 MRTT, but with less fuel capacity and having a rough runway capability.
May also have one or two dedicated transports additionally to the MRTT for freight and VIP transport, the gravel runway ability gives it a limited strategic transport ability.

To supplement the 727 I was thinking of obtaining a limited number of Douglas DC-8 Super 70 (which has the CFM56-2 engines) with limited upgrades (like a glass cockpit), probably about 5 aircraft. Two as transports and 3 as tankers (similar to the KC-135). Due to the age of these aircraft they would be in limited use to reduce maintenance and operating costs, but would be maintained in top condition.

Thoughts or alternative suggestions any one?                    

[Weaver]

Just a thought: if other nations are still using eligible hardware, can we "bribe" them to retire it early so we can use it? That is to say, if Jordan doesn't want to part with it's newly-upgraded Chally Is, can we pay them Leo IIA6 or Leclerc unit prices in order to free them up?