HELP with Wings & weapons

Kerrillc · December 06, 2009, 03:14:06 PM

Hi

I am doing a build for The Empire's Twilight and I have a problem that you might be able to help me with. The Darkmaster sent me a really nice SHAR FA2, but I want to improve it as an enhanced point interceptor of the Queen's German Legion or a RAF unit supporting the BAOR, but what I am wondering is, are there any weapons packs that might have "taildog"/SRAAM missiles in them as well as a gunpack or two?

And into the bargain are there any add on kits that I can use to change the wing configuration so that it has more pylon stations or could I think about finding a really not very good version of the GR7/9 and using the wings and various bit off it? Any advice will be very gratefully received

Regards

Kerrill

Jschmus · December 06, 2009, 03:41:11 PM

You could try overwing rails for your short-range AAMs, a la the Jaguar. The British iterations of the latest Harrier have more wing pylons than their American equivalents, what with the added AAM rail. Maybe you could go with overwing tanks, but I'm not sure how that would look, nor what it would do the Harrier's flight characteristics.

elmayerle · December 06, 2009, 05:08:53 PM

Well, there's always the option that was considered for the SHAR FA.2 of wingtip Sidewinder, or equivalent, rails. Other than that, the wing and center section of a Harrier GR.9 would work (though you'd want the 100% LERX too). For further hardpoints, there's the single experimental AV-8B that St. Louis did with wingtip Sidewinders (if you go this route, check the reference pics, the wingtip rails were aligned with the airflow, not the wing).

chrisonord · December 06, 2009, 05:13:12 PM

Hya Kerrill,
What about some bits from an AV-8b?
The wings are bigger and can carry more stores, plus they have the GAU-25 gun pack stuck underneath. I can't see fitting either of these mods being a problem. As far as SRAAM's go, they are pretty few and far between, but the Italeri weapons kit has them in and so does I think, the Airfix hi-tec kit.the AV-8 wings are the same as the GR7 I think, but if you want a pair of AV-8 wings and the gun pod set up,let me know, as I have a few bits and pieces knocking around that might be of use to you.
Cheers,
Chris

Weaver · December 06, 2009, 06:58:34 PM

Exactly which missiles do you want?

ASRAAM = AIM-132: the featureless tube with four tiny tail fins seen on the Typhoon. Various kits have these.

Taildog/SRAAM 75/100 = twin-tube-launched thrust-vectoring weapon developed but not produced in the 1970s. Don't know of any of these off the shelf. The real tube would be quite complicated to model, but you could always make a simplifed one and claim it's the production version. I used a couple of Sparrow bodies with scribed nose doors to make single Taildog tubes for the wintips of a Harrier not long ago.

The real-life reason why SHARs arn't based on AV-8B airframes with their big wings is that the latter are much thicker than the "old" Harrier wing which makes them about 50kts slower: not such a big deal on a bomb-truck, but critical for a fighter that's problematically slow to start with. Of course, in a 1/72nd scale whif, the thickness is barely noticeable, so you could make some minor changes to them and claim that they're the thinner, all metal ones which British Aerospace Kingston developed as an alternative to the carbon-fibre McDD ones.

Kingston also designed overwing missile rails for some of their Harrier update proposals, so that's a very credible route to go down.

Another thing to think about if you want a really fast, thin wing: I've offered up Jaguar wings to a Harrier and they look really good. Note that this was with a Matchbox Jag and an Airfix GR.3, both of which have separate left nad right wings: most Harrier kits have the wing in one piece tip-to-tip, which would make the exercise harder. Doesn't immediately gain you any more pylons, but you could always add overwings and tips....

GTX · December 07, 2009, 12:40:17 AM

QuoteSRAAM = AIM-137: the featureless tube with four tiny tail fins seen on the Typhoon. Various kits have these.

Err, I think you'll find the ASRAAM is the AIM-132.

Regards,

Greg

Weaver · December 07, 2009, 12:56:23 AM

Quote from: GTX on December 07, 2009, 12:40:17 AM
QuoteSRAAM = AIM-137: the featureless tube with four tiny tail fins seen on the Typhoon. Various kits have these.

Err, I think you'll find the ASRAAM is the AIM-132.

Regards,

Greg

Ooops! Quite right - cheers Greg!

Original post modified.

elmayerle · December 07, 2009, 04:09:20 AM

Quite!! "M-137" was the AGM-137A and BGM-137B "TSSAM", a missile family I know quite intimately from working on it for over six years.

Kerrillc · December 07, 2009, 03:37:30 PM

Thanks for all the advice.

Hello all

Now for some more questions. Are the Uteri and/or Airfix weapons kits easy to get hold of in retail shops or is that an internet shopping task?

I wonder if Chrisonord could you let me know where you are as I have no wish to inflict heavy expense in postage if only because of the gunpod and the lurex wings sound intriguing.

The alternative Jaguar wings on the harrier sounds good, but the SHAR I am looking at is one of the Xtrakit/Hannants models, would that in your opinion be a problem?

The over wing missile rails and/or the wingtip launchers also seem doable. But I am constrained by the 91 disaster scenario, so therefore any missile after '91 might not do. I am not trying to be a JMN, but trying to remain faithful to the time line. to come back to you during the day,

Sorry I haven't been able to come back to you during the day, but I read the site in between knocking up adverts.

Thanks for all the advice so far

Kerrill

Weaver · December 07, 2009, 03:58:39 PM

Which missile do you want? The AIM-132 ASRAAM didn't enter service in the real world until after 1991, although something like it could have enetered service earlier. The Taildog/SRAAM-75/SRAAM-100 could have entered service in the late 1970s, but it looked completely different to the AIM-132 and is not, as far as I know, available at all in kit form.

If you definately want AIM-132s, I can send you a couple from the Airfix Typhoon, complete with special launch rails and pylons that would look pretty good overwing on a Harrier, and pretty close to the Kingston scheme too.

I've never seen the Xtrakit SHAR: how does the kit treat the wing? Is it one piece, tip-to-tip, or separate left and right wings that butt onto the fuselage.

The Airfix Hi-Tech weapons kit is highly sought after: I only got one for a reasonable price because it had some bits missing. Don't know about the Italeri one.

chrisonord · December 07, 2009, 04:18:22 PM

The italeri kit has aspide, aim-7 aim-9 sraam, aim-54, and I think the aim-120.
How about wing mounted stingers?? the missiles were around then.
Kerill,
I am in England, and if you want some harrier bits thats no probs.
Chris.

Kerrillc · December 08, 2009, 12:02:33 AM

The wings are separate left and right tongue and groove similar to the airfix harrier. (From what I can remember of that kit, try to not to collapse but I haven't touched a model in some twenty years!)

So let's try this, stingers for a dedicated anti-helicopter mission (Hinds and the like) for the Queens German Legion, AIM 132s for anti-mig/sukhoi work (the Kington scheme is appealing to me) Aspide/AIM 120s for BVR.

The Hannants kit looks good, but the are only underwing stores of a couple of fuel/ferry tanks and not a gunpod or even some of the under fuselage strakes to be seen. I'll PM you with my address if that's okay. I think I still have some models knocking around somewhere. (I'm one of those that has a hard time throwing things away! I prefer to think of it as recycling kits that haven't been used. Well that's my story and I'm sticking with it!)

Regards

Kerrill

Kerrillc · December 08, 2009, 12:59:40 AM

It occurs to me that I do have some old kits knocking around that quite frankly I have not got around to building (Heresy!). So I will have a rummage around and then I'll list what is there.

So again many thanks

Kerrill

Mossie · December 08, 2009, 04:54:09 AM

I doubt you'll find a kit with Taildog/SRAAM since they never reached service, but note that it's quite different to ASRAAM. There's a simpler test version without the doors that would make them easier to model. There's a good thread on Secret projects about Taildog/SRAAM, should provide you with enough info to scratch them.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,178.0.html

Another option would be for a version that dispensed with the tube launcher & mounted them directly onto the pylon. This would be very simple to model, remove the front fins from an early sidewinder & replace or reshape the rear fins.
http://www.skomer.u-net.com/projects/asraam.htm

The Airfix GR.7 should be fairly easy to get hold of, it's recently been re-released in gift set form. Not a bad kit, raised panel lines. You should be able to get slightly cheaper older versions on ebay & such. The GR.5 & AV-8B versions of the kit are identical as far as parts go, just have different box art, decals & instructions. There is a two seat T.10/TAV-8B kit available as well that should have all the parts you need, just with different fuselage.

Weaver · December 08, 2009, 08:14:18 AM

Quote from: Mossie on December 08, 2009, 04:54:09 AM

Another option would be for a version that dispensed with the tube launcher & mounted them directly onto the pylon. This would be very simple to model, remove the front fins from an early sidewinder & replace or reshape the rear fins.
http://www.skomer.u-net.com/projects/asraam.htm

But a Sidewinder has four tailfins and SRAAM/Taildog had six.........

Also, not that it would make a lot of difference in 1/72nd scale, but I think SRAAM/Taildog had 6" diameter bodies rather than Sidewinder's 5".