Panzerschiffs, and Other "Large Cruisers" of the WW II Era

[sequoiaranger]

I looked through 20 pages of this topic and could not find this one, so I am starting it.

In the 30's there were many "extra heavy cruisers" in the 13-17,000 ton range being thought of, developed, and even built (the Des Moines class comes to mind, as well as the "Deutschlands"). Of course "Admiral U. Furashita" has thought of some, and has some on his website:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/furamain.htm

but surely you can think of others.

*FLASH* I actually TOUCHED the Admiral Graf Spee in Montivideo! The mast-top rangefinder (and anchor) of the Graf Spee are on display in a memorial park on the waterfront. I was looking around from my stateroom with binoculars when I spotted a VERY FAMILIAR shape---one of which I had put a one-inch-long facsimile on a plastic model. WOW!

[anthonyp]

Don't forget the USN's Alaska Class of Large Cruisers (sometimes referred to as "Battlecruisers").

Why, yes, the Alaska class is an obsession of mine, why do you ask?

[proditor]

I have one I'm slowly modifying, but it's very back burnered until I finish the SSGB and the serious week builds.  Simple update to the weaponry and electronics whilst retaining the main battery.  Main job?  Making other people wish they lived further inland.

[anthonyp]

Which Large Cruiser?

[dy031101]

Inspired by both the Panzerschiffs and the Chaoyong class cruisers of the Imperial China's Beiyang Navy, how would a cruiser with anti-ship main guns all in castemate mountings have looked?  

[Weaver]

I looked through 20 pages of this topic and could not find this one, so I am starting it.

In the 30's there were many "extra heavy cruisers" in the 13-17,000 ton range being thought of, developed, and even built (the Des Moines class comes to mind, as well as the "Deutschlands"). Of course "Admiral U. Furashita" has thought of some, and has some on his website:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/furamain.htm

but surely you can think of others.

*FLASH* I actually TOUCHED the Admiral Graf Spee in Montivideo! The mast-top rangefinder (and anchor) of the Graf Spee are on display in a memorial park on the waterfront. I was looking around from my stateroom with binoculars when I spotted a VERY FAMILIAR shape---one of which I had put a one-inch-long facsimile on a plastic model. WOW!

That picture looks like there's a "cartoon-stealthy" Graf Spee sneaking up on you. Any second now, it'll scan left and right, do a double take when it realises you're watching it and then drop out of sight. Then when you return to that bearing, it'll be a bit closer.......

[sequoiaranger]

>Any second now, it'll scan left and right, do a double take when it realises you're watching it and then drop out of sight. Then when you return to that bearing, it'll be a bit closer.......  <

[GTX]

Didn't I read here a little while ago that they are planning on raising the Graf Spee and preserving it as a museum or the like?

Regards,

Greg

[proditor]

Which Large Cruiser?

Matchbox's Spee iirc.

[Weaver]

Hey Sequoiaranger, I think it didn't see us: we got away with it ther....

ARGHHHHHHHH!

But seriously: I've always thought that 10"/250mm was the ideal calibre for such a ship: sufficiently greater than 8" to outgun a normal heavy cruiser, but sufficiently below 15" as to dispel any dangerous illusions about the ship being a "cheap battleship".

[sequoiaranger]

>Didn't I read here a little while ago that they are planning on raising the Graf Spee and preserving it as a museum or the like?<

Unlikely, but possibly. As I understand it, the hulk has completely sunk into the sandy bottom (when scuttled, most of it was above water--now none of it is) of the river estuary, so it would be a BIG job to get the sand out of the whole ship. Personally, I would LOVE to see one of the triple-11" turrets mounted somewhere.

[GTX]

Here you go:  http://www.lummifilm.com/grafspee/

The operation is in part being funded by the government of Uruguay, in part by the private sector, as the wreck is now a hazard to navigation. The first major section, a 27-ton gunnery range-finding telemeter (that shown in your photos), was raised on 25 February 2004. It is expected to take several years to raise the entire wreck. Film director James Cameron is filming the salvage operation. After it has been raised, it is planned that the ship will be restored and put on display at the National Marine Museum in the Buceo neighborhood of Montevideo.

Regards,

Greg

[pyro-manic]

Personally, I would LOVE to see one of the triple-11" turrets mounted somewhere.

Not from the Panzerschiffs, but one of the turrets from the Gneisenau (a similar design, using an improved version of the 28cm gun) was used for a coastal defence battery in Norway, and is still there today. Click the image for a bigger version (courtesy of wikipedia).

[Jschmus]

It's not quite in the same class, being only a heavy cruiser, but I have plans if I can ever lay hands on the Tamiya Prinz Eugen.  She was the only major Kriegsmarine surface combatant to survive the war largely intact, and served a year or so in the USN as an unclassified miscellaneous vessel (IX-300) before being sunk at Kwajalein Atoll after surviving the Able and Baker bomb tests in 1946.

[Weaver]

The key question with this class of ship is "what is it's role?" Of the various roles put forward, I find the German commerce-raiding one by far the most convincing. The essentials of this are the ability to outrun a battleship and outgun a cruiser. Commerce-protecting cruisers can't win this arms race because they have to be built in large numbers and spread over a large area, thus restricting the amout of resources that can be used to build each one. The same total amount of resources spent by the raiding navy can be used to build a smaller number of more powerful "super-cruisers" because they only need to achieve tactical superiority in a single place for a short time in order to achieve their goal of sinking merchantmen. Building "super-duper-cruisers" as "super-cruiser-killers", as in the Dunkerques or Alaskas, seems pretty futile to me: classes built as specific counters to other classes have a very poor record of actually meeting their intended targets in practice.

In practice, the Panzerschiffs fell short of this requirement on two fronts. Firstly, they wern't fast enough, due to the adoption of diesel engines in order to maximise crusing range, and secondly, their main battery was over-sized and disposed in such a way as to make it difficult to concentrate fire when either attacking or retreating. you can see both these factors working to Graf Spee's disadvantage in the River Plate action: a lot of her fire was ineffective because she had to keep swapping targets and splitting her fire with just six guns. When she did concentrate fire on the Exeter she trashed her, but that left the Ajax and Achilles free to maneuver for torpedo attacks, harrassed only by Graf Spee's inferior 5.9" battery. At no point could she choose to disengage, because the British cruisers had considerably more speed: the action ended when they chose, and they continued to shadow her with impunity all the way to Montevideo.

So to my mind, the ideal commerce-raiding super-cruiser would look something like this:

1. Long, narrow cruiser-form hull with a pointed stern for maximum speed.

2. Diesel engines for economical cruising, combined with a steam plant which is normally fired-up but on minimum power output whilst cruising, thus allowing it to run up to full power quickly for combat.

3. Six 10" guns in two turrets, both forwards. This allows the ship to quickly overwhelm a lone 6" or 8" cruiser.

4. Six 6" guns in two turrets, both aft. This gives a good trade-off between maximum flexibility and effective fire control when engaged with multiple light cruisers or destroyers.

5. trainable, reloadable torpedo batteries aft (possible in Graf-Spee-style armoured boxes). The principle purpose of these is to force a pursuing battleship to turn away, thus allowing the super-cruiser to disengage. Range is more important than speed in these weapons, so I might go for 24" calibre, but not Long-Lance-style HTP propulsion, given the explosion/fire risk and the lack of nearby repair/support.

6. Late British-style aircraft arrangements, i.e. hangers under the bridge with a fixed athwartships catapult behind them. This is far and away the best arrangement for protecting the aircraft from weather, heavy seas and muzzle blast without unduly compromising the rest of the ship. A larger number of small, two-seat aircraft with some attack capability (like an Arado 196) are preferable to a smaller number of bigger, flying boat types.