Valiant

[rickshaw]

I'm sure that if the money had been available at the time the B2 or a new winged version would have been put into service, or perhaps the troop transport/airliner proposal.
Just out of curiosity what would of happened to the Short Sperrin if that had gone into production?

It would have been a retrograde step, something even their Airships recognised.  It was purely a back up to a back up (the Valiant).   They knew that jets could fly, they just weren't sure about them new fangled swept wings.   Once the Valiant had flown successfully, the Sperrin became redundant.   

[Thorvic]

Its simple by 1965 Skybolt had failed and the UK was in the process of switching to Polaris launched from the Resolution class SSNBs. We didn't need strategic bombers or the tanker force to support them which is what the Valiant would have soldiered on as supporting Vulcan and Victor in the Strategic role till they were relegated to the tactical role where they would be replaced by F-111K and AFVG.

They would have just re-sparred them as the Valiant B2 was a demonstrator from the 50s for a low level strike version and long forgotten and no longer required in 65 especially when money was tighter.

[rickshaw]

A Valiant in Argentinian service would make for a interesting WHIF, say around 1982?   

I would say even with upgrades, the end would have come by the 1970's in RAF service as tankers.  Or perhaps mid 1980's with some second users.   

Maybe some other exports had they decided to be in the bomber business- a few might even have been allowed:
Canada
Australia
India

Australia expressed first some interest in Valiant and then, later Victor and then Vulcan.   The Air Chief Marshal, Sherger was interested in making sure that the RAAF remained fixed on it's role as a deterrence measure (initially against the PRC and then later, Indonesia).   The F-111C eventually fulfilled the role he envisaged for the V-Bombers.

[NARSES2]

Canada
Australia
India

India would be interesting. Wonder what Pakistan would have tried to get from the U.S. to offset them ? B-47's or is that daft ? Maybe they'd have approached the U.S.S.R. ?

Australia for possible use against Indonesia at the time ?

Canada ? Any practical use for it ?

[kitnut617]

Canada ? Any practical use for it ?

Maritime Patrol PR version     we've got a very long coastline ---- up the east side, along the north and down the west side

[PR19_Kit]

Maritime Patrol PR version     we've got a very long coastline ---- up the east side, along the north and down the west side

But isn't the north side frozen solid much of the time?

A long endurance Sno-Cat might have been more suitable. 

[Weaver]

As I understand it, the fundamental problem wasn't caused by low flying, it was caused by the low fatigue life of the alloy used in the wings, and low flying just revealed it sooner. IIRC a set of wings that were stored in the factory and had never even been fitted to an aircraft, let alone flow, were found to be cracked... That means that even if they'd re-assigned them to high-level duties such as tanker, MRR (Maritime Radar Recce - a Vulcan task eventually) and photo-recce, they still wouldn't have lasted long.

As a full-service LRMPS aircraft they'd have been miserable, since the crew was too small for the job, couldn't be easily expanded, and didn't have enough space for the kind of rest facilities needed on long flights. The best you could have done was a B-66-style crew-in-the-bomb-bay azrrangement, but they would have been just as cramped.

In an alternative timeline, you could have the B.2 go into production in the 1950s instead of the B.1 as 'future-proofing' against a need to go to low level arising in the 1960s. This would have shown up the problem with the original alloy much faster, and the design could then have been modified while it was still in production.

[kitnut617]

But isn't the north side frozen solid much of the time?

Seeing photos of submarine conning towers poking up through the ice come to mind -------  but at the moment there's a sea passage opening up. Supposedly global warming and all that, my opinion is that it happens periodically anyway, the Inuit Memory Men ( their history story tellers) mention it.

Even today there are the Rangers who patrol the border line, these are Inuit Militia volunteers much like your Territorials. The north coast line is one of the longest in the world and is practically un-guarded. Every year there's a military exercise up there which includes the Rangers along with the regulars.

[Default Setting]

My query had an ulterior motive: the TL I'm writing features a non-Communist, Western-allied China that independently develops nuclear weapons in the 1950s but still lacks the R&D capability to design a proper vector from the ground up. As a stopgap solution, it looks abroad for heavy bombers. Its first choice might be the B-47 but I'm assuming that the US government doesn't give Boeing clearance for selling it to a foreign power. So the Chinese turn to Britain, and if they do get to purchase the Valiant, they'll rely on it until the late 1960s. How does that sound?

[Captain Canada]

The B.2 set looks great, but for that price I'm sure I could scratch somat together 

[Weaver]

My query had an ulterior motive: the TL I'm writing features a non-Communist, Western-allied China that independently develops nuclear weapons in the 1950s but still lacks the R&D capability to design a proper vector from the ground up. As a stopgap solution, it looks abroad for heavy bombers. Its first choice might be the B-47 but I'm assuming that the US government doesn't give Boeing clearance for selling it to a foreign power. So the Chinese turn to Britain, and if they do get to purchase the Valiant, they'll rely on it until the late 1960s. How does that sound?

Sounds reasonable. You could pair it with Sharkit's Gloster XP.1001 'China Fighter' as an escort!

[kitnut617]

My query had an ulterior motive: the TL I'm writing features a non-Communist, Western-allied China that independently develops nuclear weapons in the 1950s but still lacks the R&D capability to design a proper vector from the ground up. As a stopgap solution, it looks abroad for heavy bombers. Its first choice might be the B-47 but I'm assuming that the US government doesn't give Boeing clearance for selling it to a foreign power. So the Chinese turn to Britain, and if they do get to purchase the Valiant, they'll rely on it until the late 1960s. How does that sound?

Sounds reasonable. You could pair it with Sharkit's Gloster XP.1001 'China Fighter' as an escort!

The XP.1001 is quite a nice little aircraft, got one of them in the stash.

[rickshaw]

My query had an ulterior motive: the TL I'm writing features a non-Communist, Western-allied China that independently develops nuclear weapons in the 1950s but still lacks the R&D capability to design a proper vector from the ground up. As a stopgap solution, it looks abroad for heavy bombers. Its first choice might be the B-47 but I'm assuming that the US government doesn't give Boeing clearance for selling it to a foreign power. So the Chinese turn to Britain, and if they do get to purchase the Valiant, they'll rely on it until the late 1960s. How does that sound?

Fine.  France though, might be a more interesting choice.  Do the Chinese really need intercontinental range?   China, traditionally has always been a local power.   Perhaps a Vautour II or a Canberra might be a better bet?

[zenrat]

India would be interesting. Wonder what Pakistan would have tried to get from the U.S. to offset them ? B-47's or is that daft ? Maybe they'd have approached the U.S.S.R. ?

Pakistan already had Chinese Beagles (H-5) maybe they would have acquired Chinese Badgers (H-6)?

[Default Setting]

France though, might be a more interesting choice.  Do the Chinese really need intercontinental range?   China, traditionally has always been a local power.   Perhaps a Vautour II or a Canberra might be a better bet?

You're raising a good point. China's main geopolitical adversary during the Cold War is the USSR, so a bomber doesn't technically need to be intercontinental; it does, however, need to have enough range to reach European Russia from China and then (hopefully) go back. But I was thinking mostly in terms of payload rather than range. Once the Chinese nuclear program has advanced beyond bulky early nukes, a heavy bomber may no longer be the best vector, and instead something like the Canberra or the Vautour would be a better fit.

With yeh_henry's precious contribution, this alternate China's second-generation nuclear bomber will be based on the Super-Vautour.