Valiant

[TallEng]

A couple of very interesting ideas there,
I don't suppose the Australians might have used the Valiant in Vietnam?.
And if anybodies interested,  and live in the U.K. or have contacts there, Hannants the Railway shop in Liverpool have Airfix Valiants for 25 of your English pounds!
(my Dad's getting a Large parcel sometime in the next few days for me to pick up later this month )
TallEng is going to be very busy soon!

[Martin H]

I think you mean Hattons. not Hannants lol

[TallEng]

What can I say,
Its a fair cop.
I did indeed mean HATTONS
Regards
TallEng

[rickshaw]

I don't suppose the Australians might have used the Valiant in Vietnam?.

It has been entertained here, several times.  However, the RAAF never adopted it in real life and was actually more interested in the Victor and the Vulcan.  As it was, if the RAAF had adopted them, I really can't see their service life extending all that far in RAAF service past what the RAF managed to get out of them, so I rather suspect they wouldn't have made it to Vietnam (being far too valuable to waste on "mere" tactical tasks).

[TsrJoe]

almost real ...

silver RAF. ones with black and yellow 'Suez stripes' (i recall reading that there was contempory artwork showing the bombers in stripes but iv never come across it, the examples used in theatre operated without the fuselage and wing ident markings)

white (ex RAF.) RAAF. examples whilst awaiting TSR.2 (the Valiant was offered to the Australians as an interim type prior to the expected TSR.2 service entry circa 1966, whilst the US. offered B.47 prior to the F.111 delivery, the F.4 was obtained instead)


whatif ...

West Germany (John Lacey 'maverick' did a plausible and neat looking white example in 'grey flash' markings as well as a later camouflaged example!)

[Weaver]

LOL - that didn't take long:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Airfix-Vickers-Valiant-jet-pipe-and-pitot-Upgrade-Set-/320736320154?pt=UK_ToysGames_ModelKits_ModelKits_JN&hash=item4aad5fda9a

[rickshaw]

almost real ...

silver RAF. ones with black and yellow 'Suez stripes' (i recall reading that there was contempory artwork showing the bombers in stripes but iv never come across it, the examples used in theatre operated without the fuselage and wing ident markings)

white (ex RAF.) RAAF. examples whilst awaiting TSR.2 (the Valiant was offered to the Australians as an interim type prior to the expected TSR.2 service entry circa 1966, whilst the US. offered B.47 prior to the F.111 delivery, the F.4 was obtained instead)

Not quite right.  The B-47 was actually offered as an alternative to the F-111 during the lead up to the 1963 election.  In what was seen as a blatant piece of political interference a lone B-47 was sent on a tour of Australia and given considerable publicity.  It was completely unsuitable to the needs of the RAAF being able to carry only nuclear weapons and only able to undertake high-altitude attacks and out of production, whereas the RAAF, well aware of the dangers that improving anti-aircraft defences were creating were much more interested in a low-level delivery system.  While they had an interest in acquiring nuclear weapons at the time, they had none and weren't likely to be supplied with any by the US or the UK. 

The 1963 election was interesting as it was the only election we've ever had, even while at war, in which the primary debate was about defence matters.  With a massive re-equipment programme in the offing, with new destroyers for the RAN, new strike aircraft for the RAAF and new tropical warfare equipment for the Army (who were, as usual the poor man out), several hundreds of millions of dollars were being debated.   Then there was the looming security situation in SE Asia, with Vietnam going pear shaped and Sukarno developing his "Konfrontasi" as well.

I've never heard of the Valiant being offered to the RAAF.  I have read of the Vulcan and Victor being of interest to the RAAF.  The Valiant would have been on its last legs even in 1963.  I doubt there would have been sufficient airframes to interest the RAAF and the cost of maintaining them would have been prohibitive.  The F-4s were offered as a stop-gap while the F-111 delivery was delayed.  They didn't arrive in RAAF service until 1970, well after the whole B-47/Valiant/TSR.2/F-111 debate was over and done with.

[TsrJoe]

the offer of the Valiant as an RAAF. interim was found in discussion documents in the AIR series at the National Archive, Kew. I dont have my photocopies to hand, but it was envisaged the type would be in service for no more than 4 years til the TSR.2 aircraft were delivered and to be taken from RAF. war emergency stock airframes with suitable spar life left.

I hadnt heard of the B.47 as an alternate to the F.111, altho the same files mention the US. type as a stop gap (with nuclear dual key capability also offered) due to delays in the TFX. programme, altho it was noted the type the RAAF. really wanted was the RA.5C Vigilante. The notes later mention that the Valiant offer was pretty poor compared to what the US. were pushing, with correspondence from Australia stating it summed up the UK.s lack of seriousness to push the TSR.2 for export (at that time the RAF. had not confirmed their order other than the initial batch)

I havent come across anything in the files re. pushing the Vulcan/Victor as a service type to the Australians altho tbh. i havent checked whats there in the files, I wouldnt be surprised tho 

[The Rat]

LOL - that didn't take long:

No, and they're most welcome! Don't know if I'll splurge on them, but nice to know that everybody's taking an interest.

[rickshaw]

the offer of the Valiant as an RAAF. interim was found in discussion documents in the AIR series at the National Archive, Kew. I dont have my photocopies to hand, but it was envisaged the type would be in service for no more than 4 years til the TSR.2 aircraft were delivered and to be taken from RAF. war emergency stock airframes with suitable spar life left.

Interesting.  I rather suspect this was the RAF fooling themselves.  I've seen no evidence that the RAAF ever seriously considered the Valiant.

I hadnt heard of the B.47 as an alternate to the F.111, altho the same files mention the US. type as a stop gap (with nuclear dual key capability also offered) due to delays in the TFX. programme, altho it was noted the type the RAAF. really wanted was the RA.5C Vigilante. The notes later mention that the Valiant offer was pretty poor compared to what the US. were pushing, with correspondence from Australia stating it summed up the UK.s lack of seriousness to push the TSR.2 for export (at that time the RAF. had not confirmed their order other than the initial batch)

Greg (GTX) has provided a link in the past to the RAAF studies about the Canberra Replacement programme where they compared the A-5C Vigilante and the proposed TFX and the TSR.2 and the proposed mission profile that they hoped the aircraft would fly against the PRC.  The Vigilante was the worse of the three.  So while some may have favoured it, I don't think it was a serious contender, any more than the Mirage IV was.

I havent come across anything in the files re. pushing the Vulcan/Victor as a service type to the Australians altho tbh. i havent checked whats there in the files, I wouldnt be surprised tho 

Its mentioned in the Aerofax books on the V-Bombers by Phil Butler and Tony Buttler.  It was more a case of the RAAF being interested than the RAF "pushing" the aircraft.  Personally, I think the Victor would have made a better conventional bomber than the Vulcan suitable for our use.

[TsrJoe]

http://www.modelgeeks.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/model/6591/Vickers-Valiant-B-I-Suez-crisis-markings

anyone out there have copies of the retoched images in the old magazines ? might make for an interesting model

[PR19_Kit]

I just bought the latest Airfix Mag, which contains the last part of the article on the RW aircraft, mostly about the B2 and the later low level operations, and also a build report on the kit itself.

When I looked through the mag in the shop before buying it I could have SWORN I saw a piccie and a small news item about a forthcoming upgrade set from Airfix to build the PR and tanker versions. The pic showed the actual sprues, bomb bay doors with camera ports and hose-reels to fit the rear of the bomb bay. But now I've got the mag home I've been through it 3-4 times and I can't find the item!! 

Please someone tell me I wasn't dreaming.

[The Rat]

When I looked through the mag in the shop before buying it I could have SWORN I saw a piccie and a small news item about a forthcoming upgrade set from Airfix to build the PR and tanker versions. The pic showed the actual sprues, bomb bay doors with camera ports and hose-reels to fit the rear of the bomb bay. But now I've got the mag home I've been through it 3-4 times and I can't find the item!!

Please someone tell me I wasn't dreaming.

Possible explanation, it's happened to me before: you were looking through a few different magazines on the rack, and even though you remember it being in Airfix it was actually in a different one you looked at.

[PR19_Kit]

Possible explanation, it's happened to me before: you were looking through a few different magazines on the rack, and even though you remember it being in Airfix it was actually in a different one you looked at.

Could be, yes, but how come I didn't BUY it? The way I buy magazines (by the bundle!) is the reason this house is knee deep in vast piles of all sorts of transport related mags! 

[MAD]

Rickshaw - Greg (GTX) has provided a link in the past to the RAAF studies about the Canberra Replacement programme where they compared the A-5C Vigilante and the proposed TFX and the TSR.2 and the proposed mission profile that they hoped the aircraft would fly against the PRC.  The Vigilante was the worse of the three.  So while some may have favoured it, I don't think it was a serious contender, any more than the Mirage IV was.

Hey I must have missed this   
I would be very interested in seeing this!! Any idea where I can find this Rickshaw (or for that matter Greg)?

M.A.D