My WHIF Air-Force & Military (Part II)

[tahsin]

Off topic alert :

The first thing to accept is  that no sane person in the UK of 1940 thought of being defeated by Hitler .The issue was being bled white ; while it is true that Napoleon had conquered a tidy piece of Europe he was opposing a relatively much stronger Britain . Adolf Hitler was somewhat better off that the British industrial base , economy , diplomatic effect or  practically any other determinant of power were no longer number one , a  long running attrition campaign might equally destroy London as much as it surely would  Berlin . To this end American aid was essential and Washington would offer it naturally , though for a price . The eventual result was the Atlantic Charter , the end of colonialism and its replacement by the Free Market ( strictly controlled by the USA in any serious challenge ) and the American Golden Age . Ike was a nice guy , he didn't deserve the backstabbing of '56 , he would have sent the  ' Forts to Dien Bien Phu but for the promise of two Fresco Corps . The American power is based on the generous share of the spoils - as proven by the failure of a later generation of the Forts to subdue -  did not mean the end of America . The Tizard Mission does not even compute , Churchill offered combining UK with US and Americans laughed at him . But for the somewhat embellished feats of the "Animal Killers" ( the heavy Russian armour ) and the Bagration and how it might redone , say from Berlin to Paris and beyond , the special relationship between London and Washington might have been merely science fiction by 1960 .

But it didn't stop the British from trying to influence the events . "American longwave radars were generally competitive with British longwave radars, and the American military researchers thought the claims of the British were overblown, and found them "snooty, crusty, scornful, and antagonizing."

The antagonism would be aggravated when Watson-Watt came across the Atlantic at the end of 1941, just after America entered the war, to inspect American radar defenses. He ended up writing a report for US Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson that gave the Rad Lab  [M.I.T.s radar research unit formed to cooperate with the British ] high marks, and had nothing but contempt for Signal Corps work in the field.
Partly Watson-Watt had been put off by the extreme confusion which had seized the US Army at the time, which was entirely to be expected given the abrupt outbreak of war, and which was not news to the people caught up in it. Partly he was simply being parochial, sneering at the perfectly functional SCR-270 [American made radar]and pushing the US government to order a hundred of the unimpressive MRUs as an interim step towards obtaining Chain Home [British made radar]stations. After he went back to Britain, Signal Corps officers went through a mad fire drill, hastily cranking out reports to counter Watson-Watt's misinformation, and got the order for the MRUs cancelled.
On top of this irritation, the Army Air Corps, which was involved with radar development as a customer, decided that British radar was way ahead of the Americans in all respects, which even the Tizard mission didn't believe. The excessive awe in which the Air Corps held the British [not much of a surprise , they were reading from the same page when it came to how to fight the WW2 even before America entered the war ]had the the unfortunate effect that the service pushed for US firms to simply build copies of British gear, much to the annoyance of American workers in the field... [ There is something called patent rights , be smart and collect the fee for years to come as the others do the hard labour .]

TheNRL[USN researchers]was a bigger headache to the Rad Lab, since Admiral Harold Bowen was openly hostile, and things didn't improve until he was replaced by Rear Admiral Van Keuren . [Both King's men , I guess .]

The qoutes are from a pal's archive he dug up from the web , he told me look for radar and "Goebel"  for a good primer . I don't have much of an interest in electronics , I had to see the Wiki page to learn what a magnetron was . Though ı recognized the phrase "the most valuable cargo ever brought to our shores" . It goes on to say a member of the mission " stayed in America and a few days later at the General Electric labs in New Jersey, he showed to the incredulous Americans that the magnetron worked. " and the pal's e-mail says "As a footnote, in his haste to get the black box ready for shipment to the US, Eddie Bowen had grabbed what seemed to be a perfectly normal magnetron and put it in the box. When the American researchers examined it, they found to everyone's consternation that although all the paperwork described the magnetron as having six resonant cavities, the one the Americans actually had in their hands had eight. " . Why , American engineers would expect a British collegue to know how to count . "Bowen had accidentally snatched up a one-off experimental prototype. After some discussion, the Americans simply shrugged and went with the eight-cavity magnetron. The British would develop microwave devices using magnetrons with six cavities, the Americans using magnetrons with eight. " Wiki , untrustwothy as it is , says GE made the first magnetron to avoid somebody elses patents back in 1920 . "One-off experimental prototype " Yeah , right .

Such things happen . Reporting this from third or fourth hand from a guy who is supposed to have been there , my pal is always fond of telling the story . Back in the day USMC has finally laid its paws on the Harrier and putting it through the paces to see why the RAF has named the plane as a dog . It comes to testing the VIFF , the nozzles rotated in fast flight as a combat aid , the British have limited the engine at 75% , I don't exactly know what but it is 75% .And they are refusing to correct it . Americans are surprised to learn nobody vectors in RAF . Finally a package arrives at the door of the USMC test pilot . Unmarked , only his name on it and nobody in sight . The Dope , as he is called , opens the door with only shorts on him , sees the package , lifts it , shakes it , suspicious it might be a bomb listens for any tick tocks , smells it , finally convinced it is safe takes it to kitchen and finds two "combat plugs" . The plane is now 100% . The USN , already knowing how pathetic the Harrier is immediately cuts short the test flying . Computer simulations already  show 100% doesn't change anything . So the Dope goes all the way . He goes up , gets the speed and vectors ... As he is a free soul who doesn't like restrictions he hasn't buckled up properly , he ends up "kissing the gunsight " or "cheating on his wife with the gunsight" , according to the mood of the pal , he is pressed forward as the plane is decelarating at an abnormal speed . The indirect result ? Well , RN buys the Sea Harrier ... They know their purchase might not be fast but it can slow down and then accelarate " like something out of Star Wars. " . RAF specifically asked for removal of Sidewinder capability from their GR1s , according to Bill Gunston . And until the Dope nobody had tried out the dog in the dogfight .

All real life as far as we perceive it . The Whiff Nation angle , let me thing a bit on that . Suffice it to say , Tizard Mission did not talk to the Canadians on their own radar work ; learned it from the Americans and to avoid a political fallout , reached out to the Canadians who were already dying in the war . Wiki says the best : "Although the Tizard mission was hailed as a success, especially in radar, it is possibly significant that on his return to London on the 8 October 1940, Tizard found that his job no longer existed."

[Battlefield]

Lesnick,

Nope, those revisions sound realistic, and pratical, to me. I also think that having the nigth fighter be absed on the F7F is a good idea, too.

How long do you think the succesors to the prop fighters will serve before the jets replace them?

[KJ_Lesnick]

Tahsin,

So, the WHIF Nation could go with it's own radar research, and jet-engine research, and would be fine overall?


Battlefield,

Nope, those revisions sound realistic, and pratical, to me.

So, all I gotta do next, is work on the attack-aircraft list, and a bomber-aircraft list, and I should be complete.  I could use some input here actually.

[Battlefield]

In regards to attack aircraft, I would suggest a single-engine prop design similar to the Douglas A-1 Skyraider. It's reinforced wings allowed to carry a large amount of ordance, and it could loiter over targets for a longer time than jets.

I'd also like to suggest a twin-engine attack bomber design similar to the Douglas A-26 Invader.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Battlefield,

In regards to attack aircraft, I would suggest a single-engine prop design similar to the Douglas A-1 Skyraider. It's reinforced wings allowed to carry a large amount of ordance, and it could loiter over targets for a longer time than jets.

Understood.  I think it would be best to be a Naval design as it would allow greater versatility

I'd also like to suggest a twin-engine attack bomber design similar to the Douglas A-26 Invader.

Agreed, that sounds good to me too

[KJ_Lesnick]

Battlefield,

Regarding the WHIF-Republic Army Air Force Attack Aircraft List:

1.) I'm thinking of something like the Douglas A-20, or a scaled-up Martin Maryland-like design able to carry the same bomb-load.  Both were very fast aircraft, capable of good altitudes, with fighter-like agility.  I'd base the design around the requirement of being twin-engined; a bomb-capacity of 4,000 pounds; a maximum weight of 27,000 to 27,500 pounds; a forward gun armament consisting of either 4 x 7.7-mm or 4 x 12.7-mm (preferably 4 x 12.7-mm); a dorsal turret with either two 7.7-mm machine guns, or a single 12.7-mm machine-gun; a ventral turret with a single 7.7-mm machine gun.

2.) I'm thinking of using the domestically-built P-40-esque design, in the attack-role as a dive-bomber.  The United States did employ the P-40's effectively in this role, due to the fact that they could carry a reasonable bomb-load for a fighter, were pretty-quick in a dive, and strong enough to withstand high-g pull-outs from steep-dives.  I assume it would probably be good to fit the design with dive-brakes (assuming the P-40 didn't have them).

3.) I can't see anything wrong with an A-26-like design as it had a considerable bomb-load, a good range and speed for the time, and a pretty good gun and turret-configuration.  Don't know how agile it was, however.

4.) I'm not sure about this, but I am wondering about how effective the night-fighter design would be in the attack configuration.  The Grumman F7F could carry 2,000 pounds of bombs, the Northrop P-61 could carry 2,600 pounds of bombs, and the DeHavilland DH-98 could carry 4,000 pounds of bombs (though it has an internal bomb-bay -- I doubt the night-fighter design would have been fitted with a bomb-bay even if attack-specifications were fitted to the design because of it's size and range, though I could be wrong).  I assume the night-fighter proposed for the WHIF-Nation would have at least a capacity of 2,000 lbs.


Regarding the WHIF-Republic Navy Air-Force Attack-Aircraft List

1.) A domestically built SBD Dauntless-like scout-bomber design

2.) A domestically-built scout-bomber design either like the SB2C Helldiver; or an aircraft possessing characteristics of both the Brewster SB2A Buccaneer and the Curtiss SB2C Helldiver:  I don't know how realistic this would be, but the SB2A seems to have a higher fuel fraction, greater range, with some models possessing more powerful engines, a powered turret, and better handling-qualities; the SB2C has a greater top-speed and a heavier-bomb load.

3.) A domestically built Torpedo-Bomber design possessing similar characteristics to the Grumman TBF and Consolidated TBY

4.) An design similar to the Douglas XBT2D-1/AD-1/A-1 Skyraider.


What do you think?

[KJ_Lesnick]

Since the WHIF Republic is most likely to be located in South America, it is likely that the designations for the aircraft would be Spanish ones.  I assume some of the translations for the fighter designations to be pretty straight forward, but languages sometimes have slang-words, as well as idioms, or words that don't exactly translate, or lose their meaning in translation (The word "drone" in spanish apparently is "drone", but I don't know if the word actually means, among other designations, a pilotless airplane).

As far as I know...

• The term Attack-Aircraft seems to translate to Avión de ataque, and most likely would be shortened simply to Ataque and would receive a A-designation
  
• The term Bomber-Aircraft seems to translate to Avión de bombardero, and most likely would be shortened simply to Bombardero and receive a B-designation
  
• The term Cargo-Aircraft seems to translate to Avión de transporte or Avión de carga.  Instinctively this would be shortened to Transporte or Carga, resulting in a T-Designation or a C-Designation.  The C-designation however would most likely go to Fighters (Avión de Caza/Caza or C), so I figure Transporte would be the best translation as I see it, and would result in a T-designation
  
• The term Drone actually translates to Drone, however, I am unsure if the word Drone carries the same connotation for an unmanned aircraft as it does in English, so I'm undecided
  
• The term Electronics Aircraft seems to translate to Avión de Electrónicas, and most likely would result in an E-designation for Electrónicas
  
• The term Fighter-Aircraft seems to translate to Avión de Caza, and most likely would be shortened to Caza, and result in a C-designation
  
• The term Glider seems to translate to Planeador and most likely would receive a P-designation
  
• The term Helicopter translates to Helicóptero and would receive an H-designation
  
• The term Tanker Aircraft or Refuelling Tanker seems to translates to either Avión Cisterna or Avión de Reabastecimiento Aéreo, since the C-designation is reserved for fighters, I assume Reabastecimiento would be the best word to use and that would give an R-designation
  
• The term Observation Aircraft or Observatory Aircraft translates pretty easily into Avion de observación, or Aviones de observatorio, which could probably be shortened nicely to Observación or Observatorio, both words would result in an O-designation
  
• The term Patrol seems to translate to Patrulla, which could receive a a P-designation, except that designation is occupied by the glider designation.  Are there slang terms for gliders?
  
• The term Reconnaisance translates straight out to Reconnaisance, however the R-designation is occupied already.  Is there any slang term for either Tanker or Reconnaisance?  I suppose the O-designation could be used, if not.  I've honestly found little reason for two designations for what seems to be the same thing, especially when the term Reconnaisance seems to cover both Tactical and Strategic applications.
  
• The term Anti-Submarine seems to translate to Anti submarino.  The S-designation seems to be available
  
• The term Trainer or Training Aircraft seems to translate to Entrenador or Aviones de entrenamiento.  Unfortunately, there's a T-designation that's taken, as well as an E-designation taken.  I'm uncertain what to do here
  
• The term Very Important Person seems to translate into Persona muy importante.  I'm reluctant to use an I-designation because it looks like a 1, but I suppose it could work.  
  
• The term Experimental seems to translates exactly into Experimental.  I don't know if Spanish-speaking people would use an X-for this one, but it's a solid designation.
  
• The term Zeppelin  translates out exactly and could get a Z-designation
  

.
What do you think so far?  Did I miss anything?  Would a person who spoke Spanish have designated things differently?

[tahsin]

Practically off topic:

From a magazine mostly followed for its presumed charter to convince its audience that Pearl Harbour was all Japanese success ...

Exploration ...fit the mood of America immediately after the Mexican War .The prevailing conviction was that the United States was divinely ordained to fill its own continent  and that the distant places of the Earth , thinly settled by "less masculine breeds"  should e exploited for American benefit  .

Lieuteant William Lewis Herndon travelled 4000 miles of Amazon between  21 May 1851 and  11 April 1852 , in " a most important and delicate duty" as described by Matthew Fontaine Maury , his brother in law and famous oceanographer .

In particular,  Maury saw the Gulf of Mexico as an American Mediterrenenan , linking the vigorously growing United States on its northern shore and the vast, open and resource -rich continent to its south . He argued that good cooperative winds and ocean currents identified on his new charts shrank the effective distance between the United States and the Brazil such that the Amazon's largely unexplored watershed was the natural compliment to the Mississippi River's drainage basin .

From the same charts Maury divined that the staple foodstuffs and cotton could thrive in South America as long as "compulsory labour" - read slaves -  was available to work the newly cleared fields . Compulsion was essential , he believed , because in the fecund tropics the fear of starvation was an unreliable incentive to hard labour by free men .

Melidng scientific and political analyses ,  Maury concluded that profitable trade and close ties were inevitable and desirable , especially to those few far -sighted Southerners who worried about the future of plantation agriculture and institution of slavery in America . Brazil's enormous , fertile , and sparsely settled spaces stood , here Maury adopted the language of the powerful new technology being introduced - as a possible "safety valve" if everything went awry at home .

Maury's formidable and intelligence marked him as an unusual man ,and he is honoured by history as one  . But he had the perspectives and prejudices common to most mid-19th century priviliged Southerners and held  beliefs   and expressed views that if revealed today would instantly destroy a career in public life . Those convictions - in the divinely ordained destiny of America to expand ; in the innate inferiority of colored peoples ,  whom he called the " feeble races " of tropical America , Africa and Australia ...

Hemdon was to be advance man of a great migration  , one that would transform the United States and Brazil and establish the future of slavery and cotton culture in what " in a few years will become to be regarded as a sort of an American colony ."

"Who shall people the great valley of this mighty Amazon?

Shall it be peopled with an imbecile and indolent people , or by a go ahead race that has energy and enterprise equal to subdue the forest and develope and bring forward the vast resources hidden there . The latter by all means ... And the object of your mission there is to prepare the way for that chain of events which is to bring this result about . I care not what may be the motive which prompts the Govt to send you there . Your going is to be the first link in that chain which is to end in the establishment of the Amazonian Republic for which when the Govt has done what I have been urging it to do and what it intends to try to do viz secure by treaty the right to navigate that river , it can no more prevent  American citizens   from the free as well as the Slave States from going there with their goods and chattels to settle and revolutionise and to republicanize and AngloSaxonize that valley that it can prevent the magazine exploding after the firebrand has been thrown  into it ."

Ahh , the stuff conpiracy theorists love and look for crumbs to be fed to ...

No surprise that ... Maury cautioned Herndon to keep the expedition's private agenda , Maury's agenda ,  to himself ..."Of course you will not unnecessarily in such a country of ignorance and prejudice let the object of  your visit and the authority under which you act be known nor would I speak of it at all to shipmates and others it might embrass you and cannot facilitate you in getting along with officials "

Lt Herndon believed in his mission :

"...The Valley of Amazon and  the Valley of Mississippi are commercial complements to each other - one supplying what  the other lacks in the great commercial round . They are sisters which should not be seperated . "

"I myself believe and I think the case of the Indians in my country bears me out in the belief - that any attempt to communicate with them ends in their destruction . They cannot bear the restraints of the law or the burdens of the sustained toil , and they retreat from before the face of the white man with its improvements , till they disappear . This seems to be the destiny . Civilization must advance , though it tread on the neck of the savage or even trample him out of existence ... I think in this case the Government of Peru should take the matter in hand. ... and throw open the country open to colonization , inducing people to come by privileges and grants of land . I am satisfied that in this way , if the indian be not improved , he will at least be cast out and that this glorious country may be made  what it is not now doing - that is contribute its fair proportion to the maintenance of the human race "


"I am under the impression that were Brazil to throw off a careless jealousy , and a purile fear of our people , and invite settlers to the Valley of the Amazon , there might be found , among our Southern planters , men , who looking with apprehension (if not for themselves , at least for their children ) to the state of affairs as regards slavery at home , would under sufficient guarantees , remove their slaves to that country , cultivate its lands , draw out its resources , and prodigiously augment the power and the wealth of Brazil "

Though the Annapolis tradition of climbing up the obelix of Herndon confuses us , he travelled and opened a vast river  making the savage disappear from the face of white man  or did he not ? Are the plebes matching the towering achievement ?  Probably we will also fathom this behaviour in years to come .

Well probably a pointless entry but the proposed location of the Whiff nation as a South American state and the proposed level of technical achievement makes it an enemy of United States . Even if a "successful" state in 1940s would have meant the integration of the coloureds , let's presume the elites and the only people who count are the direct descendants of the Peninsulares ( those who came from Spain proper ) . And how are we to accept that any WASP will agree with someone who is not like him ? American foreign policy would issue a steady stream of rosey communiques , celebrating the long history of fighting shoulder to shoulder , the longest running alliance , the most successful alliance , the longest and open dialogue clearly with no idea of what they were talking about and yet would do its best to undermine the Whiff nation . Can the leopar change its spots ? Yeah , after it sees that even Uncle Sam can change ; and forget all about the Black Legend ( long entrenched into the Anglosaxon mentality ) .  American penchant for  exaggeration aimed transient advantages is unfortunately well known from real life . Americans would be giving nice speeches on the front , would be buying people here and there in the back  , biding for time . Meanwhile newspapers would be first to play the good cop , bad cop routine ( Hearst Publishing has the trademark in this issue and we sure remember the Maine ) and any American with the slighest perception would not fail to see , time to time , the grim determination arising from being lied to repeatedly  . People are not statues , they can't hide it forever . Even the word American as the definition of one nation is so explanatory , anybody else is a Latin American , South American or even Canadian . Wow , I speak lingua Chavez  or what ? It is the Manifest Destiny  , the whole continent(s) belong(s)  to Washington . Far fetched ? The newspapers here all carried the news of the elderly American lady who accused Saddam of sitting on American oil , right before the invasion of Iraq .

Lacking a similar power ranking that currently enables USA to do its thing  , Lt Maury is playing on the words to justify the future annexation of the Amazons because , let me see , ships from America can dock a week earlier ? Louisiana , Mississippi are legally American and  as they are just across the sea , this makes it alright that Brazil should also be given to Americans . Naturally by Britain in all probability . Americans might be all around the world with Perry prying open "the populous and semi-barbarous empire" of Japan to the Western world ,   or scouting the wastes of the Antarctica but the system still is in awe of the mother country . The United States will shortly face a challenge arising from the dispute between the pro-slavery South that needs trade and the rapidly industriliazing North that needs trade with protective barriers against the British industry . Sad in a country that takes particular pride from being somehow the first to declare any human being is equal . Individual fortunes were at risk ; abolishment would ruin the plantation owners , trade with no tariffs would allow bigger foreign companies swallow the Northern enterprises . The American Civil War is a fight for the British domination of the world  ; instead of adapting South went to war  , expecting British help against the "less masculine breeds"  of the North . It didn't matter London was now slave-free . The "wisdom"  was there for all to see .

Harping on George Washington had slaves too is not fair unless he had signed that there would be no slavery , the stuff meaning all human beings were equal .  Of course the Spaniards had already a solution for that . They were the human beings and the result of mixed marriages / affairs were defined in various names of animals ; natives  of course never counted for anything . Those not of the elite were not men , that was that simple . And no need to take them as equals . The glorious history of the Conquistadores proved it and the notion  that little band of brothers that faced a million Aztecs had about six hundred thousand native allies was conveniently forgotten . Even Bartolome Las Casas was downplayed by the commercialists of the Spanish Court and the local enterprising souls , his mention of games where the Spaniards would use breast-fed kids as weights to see who could throw furthest was interpreted as an exaggeration and a clear breach of his function as the human face of the Empire of Spain . They preferred to go on with the 85 different kinds of humans according to their grandparents' race , the lower ranks equalling to animals and unworthy of respect or care , fair game after the Requerimiento was read to them , this being a document prepared in 3 years during which Spanish expansion was stopped by Royal decree and that offered peace and Christian respect in return for immediate surrender .  If you didn't speak Spanish , you were obviously an heretic and spawn of the devil . Sad ,  the 7 cities did not exist , it would be interesting to see the Conquistadores against an organized state . There are websites where the mention of 1421/1435 are worthy of capital punishment - figuratively - and  Menzies is apparently taken to be anti Western of some sorts   , yet he is obviously in awe of the bandits from Extramadura , for they succeeded where the Middle Kingdom failed . Having no past they had no rules and understandings to follow and the whole world became the property of those who followed them , this is success , ain't it ?  Plus their grandchildren of grandchildren were so thrashed by the Anglosaxons one can even pity them .

Unfortunately taking it easy on the Southerners when it comes to the sins of mid-1800s is not solely based on the present day belles . There situation was particularly gray and many Northerners could have served under Lee with distinction . Custer , a convinced fighter for liberty , freedom and equality , was so confident of victory and so needy of political clout he rushed , practically alone , into the largest concentration of Plains horsemen  .Half his command , pinned by the Indians , spent an uneasy night , listening to some skilled savage playing the pipes , though his mockery did not extend to the Charge . Custer was obviously long dead ;Steven Spielberg's TV series , as far as I remember it , replaced this with a dream of a leading Indian character about fighters coming from the heavens . How real is that , these connoiseurs of the obscure don't really know . Returning to the dashing general  neither his reputation or credentials survived for long . Already under attack at the time , I sincerely doubt they would hold water in far looser 20th Century standarts , especially fighting for equality thing .  

US was not that different in the 20th Century . Manifest Destiny was now more about replacing England as the supremo , success was also assured , though the cost was "debatable"  . To prevent any kind of surprises , The D-Day issue of Times Magazine already mentioned in this thread reminds of the well advanced plans about wholesale castration of  all German male volk after the victory , just in case Wehrmacht attempts to have some balls in the decisive N.European theatre .

Real life South American countries were OK for Washington as they didn't constitute a thread for the American psyche ; Roy Braybrook , being an aircraft engineer himself , was fond of describing his trade as the peak of human intellectual endevour . And the Whiff nation has how many aircraft projects going at once ?  Quite a few more than Italy managed to , I would hazard to guess . And Rome was  in the Washington treaty having 1.75 to 5 of US , even if it took a Duce to make the trains run on time .  Turkey , not a particularly effective country in the 1940s , had a nice bunch of Polish expatriates who designed a mass of projects in the WW2 years , but the engine available was only of 130 hp .Nice anectodes , heart warming signs of future prospects all swept away with the flood of cheap American imports . Only for the supreme realism you want . Limiting the political aspect to concentrate on plane talking is obviously a good thing , done by strictures to keep the discussion on rails but once added , they sure cause misgivings from this rivet counter . Yep , for the supreme realism . Either you have a superpower that can face the US at will or you won't have a successful , peer competitive aviation industry in an inconsequential country . In whiffland you are the sole arbiter of who gets what . You can crush the Limeys and the miserable Yanks under the feet of AT-ATs , after you are done with panzers and KVs . If this is not to taste although this site was certainly found for it    why , you can still play within the bounds of reason .  Ditmar can be feted for being the first ____ to exceed 1000 km/h while your whiff nation might have already landed on the moon .

Only because the bug to write bites time to time , but within the set of ideas , you will get absolute friction with US . The WHIF Nation could go with it's own radar research, and jet-engine research, and would be fine    until the day Americans would end the war with  Atomic bombs and a blood lust to scare people to hell  . Dons would probably take only that much .  I foresee war between the US and the Whiff Nation .One can imagine a nuclear eye opener on Los Alamos or  probably 509 in Roswell . Maybe you should add one more to the build quoue , fixed and maybe swept  wings and single spool jets , AAR allowed . Not much of help I am when it comes to tech .

[KJ_Lesnick]

Tahsin,

One can imagine a nuclear eye opener on Los Alamos or  probably 509 in Roswell.

Do you mean the 509th Composite Bomber-Group?

Maybe you should add one more to the build quoue , fixed and maybe swept  wings and single spool jets , AAR allowed .

This might make me sound really stupid, but I am not sure what you mean by AAR in this context...

[KJ_Lesnick]

Tahsin,

Was there any way the WHIF-Nation, assuming it formed in 1915-1916, could have done certain things to have avoided being attacked by the US until 1941?

[tahsin]

Aerial refuelling .

For the second , only within the context of a state that will be a top notch producer of aircraft , well I am not sure , but then the first aircraft that would produce would be the that famous flying coffin DH_4 .

Ooops , sorry I meant to say class . Americans by that time were firmly in the French fighters .

[KJ_Lesnick]

Tahsin,

Aerial refuelling .

Understood

[KJ_Lesnick]

To Everybody,

Are Tahsin's estimates correct?


Tahsin,

After the start of WW2, would it be possible for the WHIF-Nation to use World War II, to be able to keep the British and US from fighting them (The WHIF Nation), and be able to get the British and/or United States to temporarily ally with them in order to defeat the bigger threat (The Axis)?


K.J. Lesnick

[tahsin]

being attacked by the US until 1941?

now this is a tempting sentence isn't it ? Would the Whiff Nation attack Pearl Harbour ? On the 8th , according to Washington calendar , might be ? It has been suggested the Pearl Harbour was a grave mistake for the Japanese and not for enraging the Americans in a sneak attack . They would be a huge surprise in a Nelsonian single big naval battle to settle all , the Battleship Row in flames and underwater meant , the USN had to avoid contact in general and very careful in the pinpricks they conducted . Midway is a torturous plan by the same God of War  , that thought out  Pearl Harbour  , to get the decisive engagement Yamamoto desperately needed - running wild for the first six months and all . Before the Hawaii operation  Japanese were ready to lose a quarter of their fleet to get the defensive lines they were planning to occupy . With USN steaming to Philippinnes to save MacArthur's bacon , the decisive engagement was far more likely . With Pearl Harbour the Japanese lost their entire fleet , eventually .

A particular Air International issue of 1985 must be saying that when the DH-4 was chosen for US Service the blueprints were transferred from metric to feet and inches . MUST be the among the top ten weird things AI ever said but it is confirmed by a letter of the director of  the "National air and space Museum " as retranslated from the decades old  Turkish hand written notes of mine , which also includes a question mark at the American surprise at the "cosmopolitan nature of British aircraft designers as the team arrived in London " . Another AI issue mentioned in an ambigious syle -as I can't any longer decipher muy own writing at the margins of the page- tells of the cool British style amusement of the RAF officers in Middle East base at the USAAF party that arrived to check the Romenian Ju-88 that had decided to go AWOL . Americans , so sure that any 88 would have self destruct onboard , spent hours looking for the bombs  , while they weren't warned even once that no Junkers had ever such a thing . Re DH-4  ,  48 000 manhours of work ( improvements mainly the Liberty engine , tests and "that" translation)  on a plane that took less than 600 to assemble but it apparently did everything it was ever asked of . If the Whiff Nation aerial inventory ever needs to go backwards , it might well include that bipe .

In Whiffland , Axis+Allies equals a hard day's work but then this is your own projection in the end ; it all depends on what you are ready to allow .

[KJ_Lesnick]

Tahsin,

Would the Whiff Nation attack Pearl Harbour ?

Why would the WHIF-Nation attack Pearl-Harbor?

the USN had to avoid contact in general and very careful in the pinpricks they conducted .

That's a good point, but weren't the carriers far more effective than the battleships?

A particular Air International issue of 1985 must be saying that when the DH-4 was chosen for US Service the blueprints were transferred from metric to feet and inches . MUST be the among the top ten weird things AI ever said but it is confirmed by a letter of the director of  the "National air and space Museum " as retranslated from the decades old  Turkish hand written notes of mine , which also includes a question mark at the American surprise at the "cosmopolitan nature of British aircraft designers as the team arrived in London "

Weird, especially since England for the most part still used feet and inches.