My WHIF Air-Force & Military (Part II)

[Battlefield]

Personally, I'd go with an F-86 like design. The Sabre proved to be a versatile design, with the numerous versions of it and such.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Battlefield,

Personally, I'd go with an F-86 like design. The Sabre proved to be a versatile design, with the numerous versions of it and such.

Sounds good for the time being, plus it could be put into use as a land-based plane earlier as carrier-certifications take time.  You'd end up with a fighter suitable for both carrier and land-based operations.  It also would allow the FJ-1 stage to be skipped and go straight to the F-86.

What do you think?

[Battlefield]

That sounds good. Go for it.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Battlefield,

I've done some research here regarding swept-wing research following the defeat of Germany in WW2.  The USN actually was aware of swept-wing technology as quickly as the USAAF was, and when you consider the Me-262's were being tested by the allies slightly before the Germans surrendered, knowledge on the particular airfoil was available.  The USAAF decided November 1st 1945 that the F-86 design was promising enough to proceed to test.  While the "WHIF Nation" is not the United States, it is obviously heavily based on it.

I think allowing an F2H-like design to evolve to incorporate swept-wings based on the Me-262 in a similar manner would have been potentially do-able if the F2H-like design was allowed to deviate more from the original design.  Granted the whole idea of the F2H was to be a low-risk development of the FH, the design already did evolve a great deal as it was.  Though the WHIF-Navy would ultimately be convinced to give up their Naval Air-Corps into an independent Air-Force (Unlike the USN which did not have an interest in doing so and was not persuaded to do so), I doubt being unable to develop high performance carrier-based aircraft on par with land-based planes would look good for the Navy as regardless of aviation operating under their umbrella or another, they wouldn't be able to use their carriers, which are operated by the Navy regardless.  Carriers are expensive and getting a lot of money allocated to your service is generally good for one's interest.

What do you think?

[Battlefield]

Again, go for it. Having both naval and air force fighters with swpet wings would be a great advantage all around. The WHIF nation would have a leading edge over every nation that hadn't started utiling swept wings yet. Later on, other types of aircraft could bee designed with swept wing, such as bombers, transports, etc, much earlier than in thereal history.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Battlefield,

Again, go for it. Having both naval and air force fighters with swept wings would be a great advantage all around.

I sincerely doubt it could have been done by January 1947 to April 1947, I'm asking around based on the timetable of the F2H's development from the FH  (Update:  It might be possible if the aerodynamics data on the Me-262, which was being test flown by the allies slightly before the end of WW2 was fully available, and the F2H was given the opportunity to deviate from the design.  Still, it would be tricky to get it all together, wind-tunnel test it, and have it ready by January to April 1947).  At the very least though, I could see a potential for some kind of variant of the earlier straight-wing aircraft with swept wings  

An F9F Cougar design could work, I don't know how easy it would be to adapt a wing with an aerodynamic profile/cross-section of the Me-262 (with revisions to leading-edge sweep, and in this case trailing edge forward sweep and taper due to the design) and auto-slats.


KJ Lesnick

[KJ_Lesnick]

So far most of our work has been on fighters, we have touched upon attack planes in the close-air-support role, but attack-aircraft cover other roles than just close air-support -- they cover pretty much all forms of tactical surface attack (with bombers covering strategic surface attack), including heavy-attack/tactical-bomber role.

Does anybody have any kind of ideas?

 

[Battlefield]

Yeah, I guess four months would be tricky. It would more realistically take a year and a half, at the most.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Battlefield,

Yeah, I guess four months would be tricky. It would more realistically take a year and a half, at the most.

Where did you get the four month figure from? 

[Cliffy B]

Battlefield,

Again, go for it. Having both naval and air force fighters with swept wings would be a great advantage all around.

I sincerely doubt it could have been done by January 1947 to April 1947, I'm asking around based on the timetable of the F2H's development from the FH  (Update:  It might be possible if the aerodynamics data on the Me-262, which was being test flown by the allies slightly before the end of WW2 was fully available, and the F2H was given the opportunity to deviate from the design.  Still, it would be tricky to get it all together, wind-tunnel test it, and have it ready by January to April 1947).  At the very least though, I could see a potential for some kind of variant of the earlier straight-wing aircraft with swept wings  

An F9F Cougar design could work, I don't know how easy it would be to adapt a wing with an aerodynamic profile/cross-section of the Me-262 (with revisions to leading-edge sweep, and in this case trailing edge forward sweep and taper due to the design) and auto-slats.


KJ Lesnick

Swept wings weren't a new idea but the USN rejected them because it meant that the aircraft would have faster landing speeds.  At the time all of the fleet carriers were still straight decks.  IE the planes had to be spotted forward as they landed which quickly ate up the available deck space for the landing aircraft.  Higher speeds meant more of a risk they'd miss the wires and slam into the planes parked forward.  It wasn't until the angled was adopted in the 1950's that we began to see swept wing USN aircraft.  So it was the carriers that held back the swept wing, not the aerospace industry and their lack of knowledge to produce a swept wing aircraft.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Cliffy B,

Swept wings weren't a new idea

When you say they weren't a new idea, do you mean prior to the end of WW2? 

but the USN rejected them because it meant that the aircraft would have faster landing speeds.

How much a difference was there in takeoff and landing speeds did some of the first carrier-based straight-winged jet-aircraft (FH Phantom, FJ-1 Fury, F2H Banshee, F9F Panther) compared to WW2-era carrier-based propeller driven fighters and scout-bombers/torpedo-bombers? 
Also, how much of a difference was there in the takeoff and landing speeds of the first carrier-based swept-winged fighters (F7U-Cutlass, FJ-2 Fury, F9F-6 Cougar) in comparison to the first carrier-based straight-winged jet-aircraft?

At the time all of the fleet carriers were still straight decks.  IE the planes had to be spotted forward as they landed which quickly ate up the available deck space for the landing aircraft.  Higher speeds meant more of a risk they'd miss the wires and slam into the planes parked forward.

Yes, I am aware of this. 

It wasn't until the angled was adopted in the 1950's that we began to see swept wing USN aircraft.

When was the angled flight-deck first conceived, and first implemented?

[Battlefield]

Okay, here's the history of the angled flight deck. It was first conceived during the early 1950s by a captian in Britian's Royal Navy named Dennis Campbell. The concept was first tested on both the HMS Centaur and USS Miday by painting angled deck markings on the flight deck. From September to December 1952, the USS Antietam had a sponson added for testing full landings on a angled deck. The results were satisfcatory. In 1954 HMS Centaur was modified with a angled flight deck. The US Navy then installed angled flight decks as part of the SCB-125 uprgrades for Essex class carriers, and the SCB-110/110A upgrades for Midway class carriers. In Febuary 1955, HMS Ark Royal became the first aircraft carrier in history to be built from start with an angled flight deck. Later that year both HMS Majestic and USS Forrestal were also built with angled flight decks.

Hope that answers your question.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Battlefield,

Okay, here's the history of the angled flight deck. It was first conceived during the early 1950s by a captian in Britian's Royal Navy named Dennis Campbell.

1950's?  Judging by what you wrote further down, and what I found online, I thought the HMS Ark Royal was launched in 1950 with the angled deck?

The concept was first tested on both the HMS Centaur and USS Miday by painting angled deck markings on the flight deck. From September to December 1952, the USS Antietam had a sponson added for testing full landings on a angled deck.

I'm surprised they were able to modify the ship that rapidly with an angled flight deck

[KJ_Lesnick]

I was thinking about swept-wings in general and I just thought about something that I'm surprised I did not think of earlier

Northrop did a lot of research on flying-wings, of which virtually-all were swept in design, and these designs were conceived pre-WW2 (N-1M), during WW2 (N-9M), and right at the end of WW2 (XP-79B).  I'm pretty sure such a flying swept-wing could be incorporated into a more conventional aircraft with a fuselage with such a swept-wing mounted on it along with a swept tail.

Regardless, I don't know if the US Navy knew anything about Northrop's developments (particularly the N-1M and N-9M), but if they did, it would make the idea of a swept-wing F2H like design possible.


 

[KJ_Lesnick]

What course do you think jet-engine development should take? 

I'm thinking of having some kind of twin-spool engine begin development in 1946 (The XT35 was based on the XJ37 which was Lockheed's L1000 jet.  It made it's first run in that timeframe).  The idea would be to begin development of a twin-spool pure-jet engine (unlike the XT35) along more conventional lines than the XT35/XJ37 (which seemed overly complicated, and overly ambitious, etc) for example.