My WHIF Air-Force & Military (Part II)

[KJ_Lesnick]

Does anybody think that a 17-stage twin-spool axial-flow turbojet similar to a scaled-down J57 (J52 size) developed by an Army Air Force would have affected Naval-Aviation turbojet development?

[KJ_Lesnick]

Regarding the location of the What-if Nation.  I was wondering if a nation consisting of the lands currently occupied by either...

• 1.) Chile and Peru
  
• 2.) Chile, Peru, and Ecuador
  
• 3.) Chile, Peru, Bolivia

...would be a good basic location provided that one of the three countries after their revolution and separation from Spain, underwent some form of secondary revolution, adopted some kind of Constitutional system like the United States, then took over the others around 1890?

Could such a hypothetical what-if alternative historical situation occur and be reasonably inconsequential from a historical context up until the entry of the United States into World War II?

[bluedonkey99]

some ideas for  formulating some countries in South America ?

South american "colonial" territories map here
http://history.howstuffworks.com/south-american-history/history-of-south-america.htm/printable

or NGS map based on undelaying precolonial ethnic/tribal areas
http://www.ngmapcollection.com/Product.aspx?pid=15658

[KJ_Lesnick]

Blue Donkey,

Fascinating read.  I think the best idea would be to either do one of the following

I:  Work around Simon Bolivar, and somehow allow him to be more successful, allowing him to deal with the powerful interests who rejected his desire for, or had little to no allegiance for his libreralistic principles, as well as allowing for his Constitutional convention at Ocaña in 1826 to have succeeded
- Advantages  
* Would yield a democracy with a rich history that would make a fine What-If Nation
*Sufficiently large land-mass
* Plenty of coastal area allowing for a blue-water navy
*Plenty of resources
- Disadvantages
* Bolivar wanted a President with a lifetime appointment.
* The nation might be a bit too big, ironically (probably larger than the United States), and with a similar ideology to the United States, it most likely would have affected the histories of the United States and Europe in a sufficiently consequential manner prior to WW2.  This could be good or bad (This in itself could make for a fine alternative history thread of it's own though even if it doesn't work out in this thread...)
* Considering Bolivar had an aristocratic background, it's possible that his upbringing, and his associations could lead to various forms of elitism and corruption

II.  Work at forming a democratic republic in South America some time after 1826 and before 1890
- Advantages
* A smaller nation that might not affect history significantly prior to December, 1941
* Could include a coastal area
* Some of those nations had a pretty good amount of resources so it would seem
- Disadvantages
* Various wars occurred throughout these areas of South America, and it (at least to me) appears difficult to form a democracy under some of these conditions


What do you think?

[Radish]

I've been emptying, bit by bit, my hobby room.....so that in about 2 weeks time (I hope) I can move into a larger room. It means the carpet monster has been releasing treasures, and inside the occasional book are further memories.
In 1981 I made a list of equipment for a mid-European Air Force....just the interesting combat bits, based on the kits available:
1950:
P-51D....3 units
Spitfire IX....2 units
1960:
F-86F....2 units
F-86D....1 unit
F-84F....2 units
1970:
f-104G....3 units
F-100D.....2 units
1980:
F-104S....2 units
F-104G....2 units
F-100D.....1 unit

[KJ_Lesnick]

Radish,

I was thinking of an inventory something like this

WHIF Army Air Force

• FIGHTERS (Maybe I should widdle this down a bit)
  
  
  
  • A domestically-built design with similar performance to the Curtiss P-40 Warhawk
    
  • A domestically-built design with similar performance to the Bell P-39 Airacobra
    
  • A license-built Supermarine Spitfire design
    
  • A license-built Lockheed P-38 Lightning
    
  • A license-built North-American P-51 Mustang
    
  • A license-built Chance-Vought F4U Corsair
    
  • A domestically-built Night-Fighter design with similar performance characteristics to the F7F/P-61
    
  • A domestically-built twin-engine Jet-fighter design
  ATTACK
  
  
  
  • A domestically built aircraft with performance characteristics similar to the Douglas A-20/A-26
    
  • A license-Built Chance-Vought F4U modification
    
  • A domestically built aircraft based on a Northrop A-17 like design with a more powerful engine and stuff
  BOMBER
  
  
  
  • A domestically built aircraft similar to the Avro Lancaster
    
  • A domestically built aircraft similar in capability to the B-25 (maybe a little bit faster at altitude)
    
  • A domestically built aircraft similar in capability to the B-29

.
WHIF Naval Air-Force

• FIGHTERS
  
  
  
  • A domestically built F4F/F2A like design
    
  • A license-built Chance-Vought F4U Corsair
    
  • A domestically-built F4F/F2A successor design with extra fuel capacity, R-2800's, and larger laminar-flow wings
    
  • A domestically-built P-61/F7F like Night-Fighter aircraft
    
  • A domestically-built jet-fighter
• ATTACK
  
  
  
  • A domestically built design similar in performance and capabilities to the Vought SB2U Vindicator that would be phased out early on
    
  • A domestically built design similar in performance, size, and capabilities to the Douglas SBD Dauntless
    
  • A domestically built design similar to the SB2C/TBF
    
  • A domestically built design similar in capability to the AD Skyraider
• PATROL, PATROL BOMBER
  
  
  
  • A domestically built sea-plane design similar in capability to the PBY Catalina
    
  • A domestically built sea-plane design similar in capability to the P4Y Catalina
    
  • A domestically built design similar in capability to the Avro Lancaster
    
  • A domestically built design similar in capability to the North American B-25
    
  • A domestically built design similar in capability to the Boeing B-29

.
.
.
I'm wondering if my list includes too much aircraft, even if the amount of aircraft produced in total could in some cases be less than the US produced for example, during WW2.


BTW:  I don't know enough about transports of the era other than the DC-3 so I really don't know much of what to put in for now, but I'll probably eventually come up with something.

[Battlefield]

I perosnally like having the combination of CHile, Peru, and Ecuador. You do get a long unborken coastline, and, withy Peru, you have riover access to Brazil, the Amazon, and the Atlantic Ocean.

I think you ashould twiddle down the fighter list a bit.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Battlefield,

I perosnally like having the combination of CHile, Peru, and Ecuador. You do get a long unborken coastline, and, withy Peru, you have riover access to Brazil, the Amazon, and the Atlantic Ocean.

Yeah, it sounds good to me too, though with Peru providing access to the Amazon, a nation consisting of the lands of Chile, Peru, and Bolivia could potentially be good enough as is.  The formation of such a nation could have occurred in an alt-history timeline at two historical points as I see it.

• The first would likely be in the mid 1840's, in between two wars; the war of the peru-bolivian confederation (1837–39), and the war of the triple alliance (1865–70)
  
• The second being post 1883:  There was a war from 1879 to 1883, and this expansion could have either occurred after it, or as an outgrowth of it.

.
I'm not an expert on the affairs in these regions, but for a nation to form with principles similar to the United States, another revolution would have to form somewhere between these points in time and no later than 1895.  I don't know how what the technological level of any of these nations were, and this WHIF nation could technologically catch up to the United States and England by either WW1 or WW2.

I think you ashould twiddle down the fighter list a bit.

Agreed, I'm just not sure exactly which fighters/attack-planes/bombers in the list to remove.  Do you have any ideas?

[Battlefield]

For the fighter list for the Army-Air Force, I'd removed the F4U Corsair. In my opinion, that should only be a naval fighter. I'd also remove the Spitfire. Since your modeling your WHIF republic on the US, it seems strange to have a British fighte ron the list.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Battlefield,

For the fighter list for the Army-Air Force, I'd removed the F4U Corsair. In my opinion, that should only be a naval fighter.

I don't see an objection with using a carrier-based fighter as a land-based plane, technically during WW2 even the USAAF used some USN Scout-Bombers as Attack-planes.  The idea was to basically use the F4U in lieu of what the P-47 was designed for, though as I think about it, that might not be the best idea.

I'd also remove the Spitfire. Since your modeling your WHIF republic on the US, it seems strange to have a British fighte ron the list.

Though the WHIF-Republic is heavily inspired by the United States, it isn't a carbon-copy of it in every respect.  Still, I wouldn't be surprised if removing the Spitfire would be a better idea, and instead incorporating a design similar to the P-39 or P-40 with a turbocharger installed -- the technology existed prior to WW2.

[tahsin]

Well , well it is something that I really do a lot , correcting this and that in various alternative hisory posts and it seems many experts in the site have rushed to correct a couple of things in post that was here . I wasn't exactly sure how to say it on the day but let me give a try .

I might bet this was a  mixed up recollection of books and magazines read long ago . At a first glance one can discern Goodyear's FG-1 , the favourite of USN and not only because it came at just 55 000 $ , Vougt F4U second with a tag of 73 000 and finally Brewster Horse Carriage's F3A at a horrible 80 or 90 + with a quality generally defined as unprintable . I am not exactly sure of these 1944 prices but one can check them at the Time Magazine of  the D-Day week , I had bought a reprint in 1994 . But of course Dash 4 was the Corsair .Developed from the same 1D subseries that differed so widely between companies it was the first bentwing that didn't need a falsified speed display to outperform the Hellcat , and funnily it didn't brew up as easily .

P-51 is even easier . K was always lower rated than D , due to less efficient propeller . Though those fringe elements who look at a F-6B ( according to buzz number ) and mumble Messerschmitt wouldn't forgive you .

[KJ_Lesnick]

Tahsin,

Wow, I didn't know there was that much of a difference in price between the Goodyear and Chance-Vought versions, I figured they were all the same in price but simply had a different manufacturer building them for greater capacity

[KJ_Lesnick]

While off the current topic.  What about the Tizard mission?  A lot of useful information was obtained during that time period from the British?  Would the WHIF Nation have been able to participate, or would they have had to have developed the technology by themselves?

[KJ_Lesnick]

Battlefield,

Regarding the WHIF AAF (Army Air-Force) fighter list, here's some revisions I've made so far

1.) A domestically-built single-engined fighter with similar performance, overall, to the Curtiss P-40 Warhawk.

• The aircraft had an excellent rate of turn
  
• The P-40 was rugged, and sturdy as hell, and in some cases survived mid-air collisions
  
• The plane could be fitted with turbochargers to augment it's horsepower and top-speed, as faster planes start to enter the scene
  

.
2.) An imported or license-built North-American P-51 Mustang

• The aircraft was built to be an export-plane
  
• The P-51 was highly-agile, and due to it's powerful engines, radiator-configuration, overall streamlined design, and laminar-flow wings, was one of the fastest airplanes of WW2, especially at altitude.
  
• It was also a fairly sturdy, rugged plane
  

.
3.) A domestically-built twin-engined night-fighter, preferably with attack specifications added to the design due to the aircraft's size and range requirements.  Personally, my preference would be a twin-seat design about 45-feet in length, similar overall to the DeHavilland DH-98 Mosquito or the Grumman F7F Tigercat, with a laminar-flow wing, an overall wing-area somewhere between 570 to 640 square-feet for the desired wing-loading, powered by either 2 domestically-built turbo-charged radial engines with similar horsepower levels to the R-2800, or a license-built R-2800, armament to consist of 4 x 20mm cannon, possibly another 2 x 12.7mm machine guns, provision for 2,000 to 4,000 pounds of bombs

• Night fighters were used with great success during WW2
  
• The aircraft, if designed right, would probably be very maneuverable, and very fast due to the engine-power available, probably making it effective enough to tangle even with, then contemporary, day-fighters
  
• The range of the aircraft, it's air to ground weapons capacity would also make it useful in the air-to-ground role
  
• Radar turned out to be an invaluable technology in combat aircraft, and is still used to this day.

.
4.) A domestically-built twin-engined jet-fighter (Most likely the twin-engined F-1 Eagle concept I came up with, and Jose F -- ElectrikBlue -- drew up), though, honestly I'm seriously debating the practicality of license-building a british-engine and just proceeding with a domestically built axial-flow version similar to the J30 (Lockheed first looked into turbojets as early as 1941, and from 1942, when the USN was made aware of jet-engines, they were able to produce the J30 in about a year), since I'm not certain if the WHIF-Nation would be involved in the Tizard mission, where the USA was given all sorts of data on jet-engines

• Such a design would be an integral step towards the jet-age, which has proven to have been the wave of the future.
  

.
I've successfully widdled down the list from eight to four.

Regarding the WHIF NAF (Navy Air Force) fighter-list.

1.) A domestically-built F4F-like design
2.) A domestically-built successor to the domestically built F4F-like design, with a 14,000 pound weight, a greater fuel fraction than it's predecessor, a turbocharged R-2800, or R-2800-like engine, and a larger laminar flow-wing.
3.) A navalized version of the Army Air-Force Night-Fighter design
4.) A domestically-built twin-engined jet-fighter design, which as I envision it would be similar to the FH, but with a fuselage shape more like the F2H, the larger wings of the F2H, gun-placement of the F2H with reasonable speed brakes.


Does any of this sound unrealistic?


KJ Lesnick

[KJ_Lesnick]

Considering Chile and Peru's geographical locations make a good location for the WHIF Nation, I need some answers as to a couple of questions

- Firstly, was there any point in Chile's history where they could have adopted a Constitution similar to the United States Constitution?
- Secondly, did either Chile or Peru ever cast-off the British, French, and Dutch colonies?
- Thirdly, was there any way to have combatted the banking interests back then?