WW2 inflight refuelling

[tigercat]

I know some experimental work was carried out on inflight refuelling but nothing was rolled out operationally.

Which aircraft would have been suitable for conversion to Tankers ?

[Mossie]

Bomber types come to immediate mind, Wellington, Whitley, He-111, Ju-88 early on, with Lancasters, Halifaxes, B-17's, B-24's, B-29's etc.

Maritime Patrol types like the Sunderland & Fw-200 would be very useful early on, with the Ju-290 later.

[tigercat]

I imagine it would have been otherwise obsolete aircraft that would have been converted first so maybe the Junkers 86 , maybe the Bristol Bombay and the  HP Harrow

[James]

I think the Bombay would work well, as would the AW Albemarle. I think the Vickers Wellesley could work too. You could modified them to the same standard as the three RAF's Long-Range Development Flight Wellesleys and with underwing panniers replaced by massive fuel tanks.

[The Wooksta!]

Tiger Force was to have used converted Lancasters.  I have one started but packed away.

The Luftwaffe did some trials with Ju 290s.  Given their lack of large aircraft and the motley collection of transport aircraft they had after Stalingrad, your guess is as good as anyone elses.

However, given the sheer number of He 111s built, I'd suggest that.  Alternately, Junkers had built a lot more Ju 86s than entered service (100 or so), most of them finishing the war as crated spares.  Perhaps they'd be ideal?  The location of the dustbin ventral turret would be the ideal point for the HDU.  Best kit to use as a basis would be the Italeri Ju 86E with the radials, the last new build aircraft being the Ju 86G with BMW 132 radials.  The Ju 86 P and R were all conversions of the Ju 86D.

[Mossie]

How about buddy tanking form smaller types like the Mossie, Beaufighter, A-20, Ta-154 etc?  Send a couple of tank equipped aircraft up with the main force, refuel to top up for the extra burn for initial climb to give a few extra hundred miles?  Would save sending another type to rendezvous, that could be frought with difficulty before radar became the norm.

[kengeorge]

Hi Everyone,
                Been thinking about WW II IFR as well, part of a larger tread that is taking an ice age to do & I will post eventually.
     But for now, I'll post these two examples.
     1st is an Avro Canada Toronto K.1A (P), based on an Avro mail plane design. The 2nd is a modified Avro Canada York re-named Hamilton FR.1A of 415 Squadron RCAF. I think I have the insignia right, if not then I know someone will put me right.
     Thanks,
     KenGeorge

[KJ_Lesnick]

Do you think such a development in WW2 would have interfered with development in large bombers like the B-36 and later B-52?

[Cliffy B]

Check out this article

http://airrefuelingarchive.wordpress.com/2009/05/10/b-24d-refueling-a-b-17e/



Apparently the USAAF experimented successfully with the idea of aerial re-fueling in 1943 using a system patented by British Flight Lieutenant Richard Atcherley in 1934!  The system proved a success and was able in tests to give the B-17 (with a full bomb load) a 50% longer range.  The big wigs in charge though canceled the project since they didn't see a need for it.... 

[rickshaw]

I've seen pictures of the experiments undertaken by Flight Refuelling Ltd.  Lots of Drogue units but I must admit I've never seen a picture of the probes which the receiving aircraft would have been fitted with.  Does anybody know of any or were they always going to, as the USAAF pictures show, have some other means of capturing the hose pipe?

[Mossie]

The big wigs in charge though canceled the project since they didn't see a need for it.... 

I can understand this.  In 1943, you've got bombers that have more than enough range to cover the whole of Germany, with very long range bombers like the B-29 well in development for the Pacific theatre.  Added to that, there are other problems to think about .  Where do you refuel?  You're pretty much limited to the Channel & North Sea in Europe, this limits the usefulness, also fighters are going lap up a bomber formation that's slowed down to wait to fuel.  How do you find the tanker?  Unless they go up with the formation, finding each other was frought with difficulty in this timeline.

Germany might find the capability useful.  This would allow them to attack targets deep in Russia & bring the fabled Amerikabomber closer to reality.  Russia as well, although they didn't use saturation bombing much, might have been able to attack Germany from bases safely within there own territory.  That might even have shortened the war some, Germany being hit from all sides.

[rickshaw]

The Russians regularly bombed Germany throughout the war.  Their aircraft were able to reach deep into Germany from the NE, over the Baltic.

[Mossie]

Not in particularly large numbers though.

[The Wooksta!]

The Russians didn't have a strategic bomber force, although they had some long range bombers.  The air force was tactical and intended to support the army.  It was only post war that they moved to a stretegic posture.

[PR19_Kit]

I've seen pictures of the experiments undertaken by Flight Refuelling Ltd.  Lots of Drogue units but I must admit I've never seen a picture of the probes which the receiving aircraft would have been fitted with.  Does anybody know of any or were they always going to, as the USAAF pictures show, have some other means of capturing the hose pipe?

There are, or were, two different systems involved here.

The one shown in the piccie that Cliffy B posted is the mid-30s 'Hose and Grapple' system, which didn't use probes at all. The receiver grappled the tanker's trailing hose and hauled it aboard before connecting up and taking fuel.

The 'Probe and Drogue' system was developed post-WWII and was first demonstrated in 1947.

Much more info on both systems is available here :-

http://www.cobham75.com/cobham-the-company-1934-1985/air-to-air-refuelling-takes-off.aspx

The probes you mention all look a bit like the piccie below, but can be retracted or bolted on, or even located on very long extensions for refuelling helicopters.