Fighter design by espionage/stealing

[Weaver]

  Hunters would have been adequate in the fighter-bomber role the Mirage 5s were intended to fill (and more than likely quite a handful for a MiG-21 if they encountered one).

Very much so: in 1973 an Israeli Mirage pilot chased a Jordanian Hunter squadron leader all over the Golan Heights for something like eight minutes (one of the longest jet dogfights on record) and then only got him because he made a mistake. Given that the Mirage and MiG-21 were fairly evenly match agility-wise, you could imagine the latter having much the same trouble with a Hunter.

The issue with a much faster aircraft like the MiG-21/Mirage/Starfighter against a slower, more agile opponent such as a Hunter or MiG-17, is that the faster aircraft can disengage at will by firewalling the throttle IF he can get outside the weapons range of the slower aircraft before the latter can get a shot in. The critical question, therefore, would be whether the Israeli Hunters were retrofitted with Sidewinder capability, since this extends their engagement envelope from a few hundred yards to a couple of miles.....

[Mossie]

My question though, is why would the UK Government allow the supply of Hunters when they weren't willing to supply other military equipment to Israel in the same time period?

I'm not sure.  The way the novel plays it is that a small firm (can't remember the name) is refurbishing the Hunters for the IAF & has thier contract cancelled.  The owner is portrayed as being very amenable to illegal practices so that's possibly one explanation.  The author describes these as true events, but I think there is a lot of gap filling & i couldn't attest to just how close the novel is to the truth, if at all.

In the period around the Six Day War, the British Governments attitude towards Israel seemed to wax & wane, so export may have been possible at some time, but I'm not certain about the time lines involved.

[The Wooksta!]

Follet didn't do his research.  There's a legal clause in the sale of any Hawker Siddley aircraft that when the aircraft comes up for disposal, it must be offered back to HSA.  This is how they did a lot of business buying up used Hunters, refurbishing them and selling them on.

Depends on which party is in power in the UK.  Traditionally, Labour hate Isreal but decry anti semitism (perfect example of doublespeak and doublethink - guess who's been reading 1984!) whereas the Tories are generally supportive of Isreal.

[anthonyp]

My question though, is why would the UK Government allow the supply of Hunters when they weren't willing to supply other military equipment to Israel in the same time period?

Older design, less than capable compared to latest Migs?

[rickshaw]

Follet didn't do his research.  There's a legal clause in the sale of any Hawker Siddley aircraft that when the aircraft comes up for disposal, it must be offered back to HSA.  This is how they did a lot of business buying up used Hunters, refurbishing them and selling them on.

Depends on which party is in power in the UK.  Traditionally, Labour hate Isreal but decry anti semitism (perfect example of doublespeak and doublethink - guess who's been reading 1984!) whereas the Tories are generally supportive of Isreal.

Hate is a very strong adjective.  I've always understood that the UK was much more amenable to the Arabs than the Israelis because they ruled the Arabs whereas the Israelis tended to be a bit restive about that sort of thing (not that the Arabs didn't revolt either!).  Which is why the UK has supplied loads of goodies to the Jordanians and the Saudis in particular.  Its just a matter of doing business with who has the most cash (and oil).   You seem to be confusing BTW, anti-Israeli sentiments with anti-Semitism.  There is quite a difference.  The Tories BTW were just as willing to shaft the Israelis as Labour when it suited them from my reading of history.

[rickshaw]

My question though, is why would the UK Government allow the supply of Hunters when they weren't willing to supply other military equipment to Israel in the same time period?

Older design, less than capable compared to latest Migs?

In theory perhaps but in practice?  Hunters in the hands of the Indians proved quite capable against MiGs.   However, even making that assumption, the British embargo was pretty strict.  Sanction-busting did go on, without a doubt but never quite as blatantly as several hundred fighters...

[Mossie]

Hate is a very strong adjective.  I've always understood that the UK was much more amenable to the Arabs than the Israelis because they ruled the Arabs whereas the Israelis tended to be a bit restive about that sort of thing (not that the Arabs didn't revolt either!).  Which is why the UK has supplied loads of goodies to the Jordanians and the Saudis in particular.  Its just a matter of doing business with who has the most cash (and oil).   You seem to be confusing BTW, anti-Israeli sentiments with anti-Semitism.  There is quite a difference.  The Tories BTW were just as willing to shaft the Israelis as Labour when it suited them from my reading of history.

It's all very complicated.  When Israel was formed we very nearly went to war.  Eight years later were allied with Israel in the Suez Crisis which didn't help our relations with Arab states.  We've kept good relations with Jordan & Saudi Arabia through most of this time, although not so much with some other Middle East States.  It's basically too difficult to summarise here & if I'm honest I don't actually understand it all.

[tahsin]

Regarding the Hunter chase over Golan Heights , Mike Spick reports that as two Mirages versus a Syrian Mig-17 , who got hit only because he came across  a large valley and Asher Snir , the victorious pilot waited a bit  ( the planes were so low that the Sidewinder would have exploded in hilltops ).

[dy031101]

Did the Israelis produce the Atar turbojet themselves?  Or would it in no way prove or disprove any of the theories on how Nesher really came into being (possible hidden license agreement and such)?