Short Large Flying Boats; C & G Class, Empire, Mayo, Sunderland, Shetland Etc.

[Mossie]

Discussion for any of Shorts large flying boats & developments.  Seaford & Solent are included, but couldn't fit it all in the title!  I'll kick it off with two of the more whiffy designs:

Short Mayo Composite, including the Short S.20 Mercury & Short S.21 Maia.  In the thirties, there was a need for a long range aircraft that could cross the Atlantic, but also to cover the distances between countries in the British Empire.  Most designs were simply for larger aircraft, but the technology wasn't quite there.  Short stepped up with an unusual design of a smaller aircraft riding piggyback on a heavily modified version of it's C Class 'Empire' flying boat.  The S.20 would carry the S.21 for part of the journey, then the S.21 would continue to the destination with the S.21 returning home.  Only one was built as technology overtook the need for it, but the design was succesful.

[Mossie]

The Short Shetland followed on from the Sunderland as long range patrol aircraft.  It was built as a combined effort between Shorts & Saunders-Roe.  Two prototypes were built, the S.35 military patrol version & the S.40 civil passenger variant.  It was very large, IIRC only second to the Hughes H-4 Hercules 'Spruce Goose' when it was built.  The end of the war prevented the military version going into production & the writing was on the wall for civil flying boats.

Video on YouTube, newsreel follows the stills:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy86aHpOdkg

Short S.35 Shetland Patrol aircraft


Short S.40 Shetland civil passenger variant


Short S.35 Plans (I've got larger versions of these plans, larger than 2000 pixels if anyone needs them for profiles or a scratch build)


Short S.45 Plans

[PR19_Kit]

Cracking subject, well chosen.

While the Shetland was lots heavier, the Boeing 314 was a tad larger in wingspan, albeit by only two feet .

A great pity flying boats were overtaken by technology, runways in this case. There's something that just gets to you about an aircraft THAT big flying off the water <sigh>

[Mossie]

Ah, yes, it's your old friend the Princess I'm thinking about, which was still a few years away when the Shetland & Spruce Goose were built.

Clickable larger versions of the plans for anyone who needs them:

[kitnut617]

Don't forget the Martin Mars -----

[GTX]

Makes me wonder about a Beaufighter mounted on top of a Sunderland - no idea why...

Regards,

Greg

[PR19_Kit]

Don't forget the Martin Mars -----

Ah yes, wider, longer and heavier than a Shetland or a B314.

Apart from all that it was smaller of course.......... 

[NARSES2]

A great pity flying boats were overtaken by technology, runways in this case. There's something that just gets to you about an aircraft THAT big flying off the water <sigh>

A few years ago there was a documentary on the golden age of flying boats on one the TV (possibly Ch4) and they interviewed a retired senior RAF officer who reckoned they should have carried on with flying boat development. He reasoned that there wasn't a major city in the world that didn't have reasonable access to a large body of water and this would have meant you could have done away with the size/weight restrictions of landplanes caused by them having a fixed airstrip. He said that the sky was the limit as far as size was concerned re flying boats. Not sure I shared his enthusiasm but he was exceptionally eloquent  

One of my life experiences is a seaplane trip in Alaska. Amazed at how quickly it took off and then how quickly it came to a stop on landing  

[Aircav]

Berlin airlift they were operating Sunderlands from Lake Havel and theres a seaplane operating on the River Clyde still.

[rickshaw]

Don't forget the Martin Mars -----

Featured in the recent "A-Team" movie.  Which wasn't too bad.  My 12 year old boy, the intended audience enjoyed it a great deal.   A Mars is shown taking the team from Europe to the West Coast of the USA.  Nice looking boat!

[redstar72]

Here is a little Mayo Composite drawing from Polish book, The Great Pioneer Air Raids by Wieslaw Schier. It's rather simple, but possibly it would be useful for somebody:


The book itself:

[Mossie]

I think the Mercury is nice little aircraft on it's own, it might have fitted into the gap left when the DH Flamingo/Hertfordshire was cancelled.  Fit it with fixed landing gear & away you go.

[kiwi_dave]

I love flying boats, especially the interwar C and G's. Also the Short Singapore III.
It just seemed such a romantic way to travel, though I'm sure the reality would be rather different - unpressurised, noisy and extremely slow. Not to mention the accident rates.
I was alway fascinated by the WW2 mods to the C and G's that were impressed into service. The ASW mods - radar and depth-charges and the gun turrets. Each C was fitted with a Paul Bolton (open to correction on the specific manufacturer) quad .303 in the tail and one quad .303 in the dorsal position, off-set so as not to hit the tail. The G's, being longer had two dorsal turrets, each quads as well as the tail. There was an excellent book about the exploits of various flying boats operating on the Horseshoe root as war broke out - Front Line Airline I think it was called. Certainly a compelling and humbling narrative about the bravery of basically commercial pilots trying to survive in a war zone.

[NARSES2]

I was perusing the new Italeri Sunderland yesterday evening prior to the pub and a couple of pints of "Otter" and it got me thinking about the Sunderland's armament.

Now the Italeri kit is of an early model which still had the twin blisters rather then the midships turret. I was wondering what advantage the turret gave over the blisters ? With the blisters you can engage targets on both beams at the same time, you can engage targets at lower angles of attack then the turret plus I assume they are less complicated to use and maintain plus less likely to have a mechanical malfunction. The only advantages I can see a turret having is that it you have an almost 360 degree arc of fire, possibly able to engage targets at a higher angle of attack and one less crew member. Am I missing something ?

Also several Sunderlands at the wars end had forward facing .303"/0.5" Mg's fitted to keep the U-Boats crews heads down when attacking. Just wondered what a Sunderland with forward facing 20mm or even a Molin's gun would be able to do ?

Chris

[rickshaw]

The blisters had a fairly narrow cone of fire.  The turret which was power operated allowed faster, smoother tracking of targets (and a heavier weight of fire with more MGs all grouped closely together).  If the target is going to be polite and fly in your cone from the blister, straight towards you, the blister approach would be fine.  If they aren't and they're going to come in an steeper angles or crossing attacks, then a turret is the way to go.