Arnheim landings by Sunderland Flying Boat

[Propellerhead]

Given that the nearest landing site for gliders in the attack on Arnheim Bridge was miles away and the RAF had a large fleet of Sunderlands why were these not used for the initial assault on the bridge to land in the Rhine river?

Granted huge numbers of Stirling bombers were lost towing gliders at Arnheim from AAA, German anti aircraft defences were not necessarily so strong on the first day. The advantage of using Sunderlands would have been getting forces to the bridge so quickly that both sides of the bridge could have been captured whilst defenders were still in disarray. Thoughts?  

[tigercat]

or amphibious gliders armed with an outboard motor each

[Propellerhead]

Well I was just thinking beach them with 70 assault troops each. One would merely need a dozen or two aircraft to secure the town on the east bank. Even if they had to be landed on the west bank it would have been better than what did occur and they could have brought ammunition, food supplies, Mortars, small Anti Tank guns etc with them.

[deathjester]

Great idea!  Not only that, but as Sunderlands carried lots of guns (the Germans nicknamed them flying porcupines), could they also suppress the defences - they could even bomb them on the way in!

[The Wooksta!]

Given the close proximity of an SS panzer division, with all the flak vehicles to protect them, I'd say that the Sunderlands would be very vulnerable on landing.  Total wipeout.

[rickshaw]

Except there was a major flak concentration on the south side of the river, between the two bridges.  Mainly light, 20mm AAA, it was sufficient to be one of the reasons why the RAF didn't recommend a landing on the flat, open country to the south of the bridges.   It also caused complications for approaching gliders, as did the flak concentation around the airfield to the NW.

I doubt many Sunderland commanders would have been willing to try and land in a river, covered by flak guns at point blank range and oh, yes, wasn't it nice of the Germans to moor a large number of barges and rafts in the river in the days before the operation?  These are plainly visible in air photos in most of the books about MARKET-GARDEN.

Flying boats tend not to operate from rivers because they tend to be full of things which will hole their hulls such as floating logs, etc.

I've always been much more interested in the possibilities that airlanding the dedicated Mountain/Air Landing division (number escapes me at the moment) which the British had sitting in the UK for most of the war.  The airfield at Appledorm (?sp) which the Germans actually feared was the target initially of the airborne forces, was quite suitable.  If they'd captured that and then brought in more troops by airlanding and even brought in AFVs such as Tetrarchs and Locust light tanks, they'd have made life very complicated for the Germans.

Capturing the bridges was always an impossible dream.  Capturing a crossing point and forming a bridgehead on the northern bank - away from Arnhem was always a possibility.  21 Army group could have then built their own bridges, facilitating the drive north to the North Sea which was the ultimate objective of MARKET-GARDEN.

There are numerous other factors which would have affected the success or not of Arnhem.  Putting more troops into vulnerable flying boats and flying them into the "Witches Cauldron" was not one of them I suspect.

[BillSlim]

I've always been much more interested in the possibilities that airlanding the dedicated Mountain/Air Landing division (number escapes me at the moment) which the British had sitting in the UK for most of the war.

52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division. First trained as a mountain division (part of FORTITUDE NORTH), then as air landing and finally fought as an ordinary infantry division below sea level.

[tigercat]

What about an airdropped Landing Craft similar to the B17 with Lifeboats

An LCVP was 18:000 lb

A Lanc could lift 22 000 lb


Drop a few downriver from the bridges and motor up  or even an air dropped DUKW 

[raafif]

Is that a Ferry or a building on the shore in Dazzle Camouflage   

[tigercat]

Its actually a Borstal version of a prison hulk apparently

[tahsin]

Talking of the an river assault landing , can any one recommend a site or a book or anything about the German attack on Rotterdam where I believe 12 small planes were used and the Germans were apparently taken for British troops as they were landing ?

[rickshaw]

I've always been much more interested in the possibilities that airlanding the dedicated Mountain/Air Landing division (number escapes me at the moment) which the British had sitting in the UK for most of the war.

52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division. First trained as a mountain division (part of FORTITUDE NORTH), then as air landing and finally fought as an ordinary infantry division below sea level.

Thank'ee.  Yes thats the one.  Airlanding them north of Arnhem - which the Germans feared - would have made matters a great deal more complicated for the German defence.  It would have forced any counter-attacking force into the open countryside, where Allied airpower could have been utilised.  It would have prevented the Allied force from being splintered and divided up.

If, coupled with the intelligent (always a relative term at the best of times) of Bomber Command to support the operation by intensive and continuous bombing parallel to the advance northwards with parafrag bombs to destroy and suppress the flanking German forces which continually attacked and cut the LoC, 21 Army Group might have been able to reach the Rhine near Arnhem.

Out of a matter of interest, who has seen the movie "Theirs is the Glory"?  Made in 1945, using many survivors of Arnhem, military and civilian, it is a pretty amazing movie.  Freddy Gough, playing John Frost.  True British "Stiff Upper-Lip" at its best. 

[NARSES2]

Out of a matter of interest, who has seen the movie "Theirs is the Glory"?  Made in 1945, using many survivors of Arnhem, military and civilian, it is a pretty amazing movie.  Freddy Gough, playing John Frost.  True British "Stiff Upper-Lip" at its best. 

Seen it a couple of times...recommended 

[nev]

One thing I have never understood about the Arnhem landings is why they were at 2 in the afternoon   One of the problems in the assault (as in all airborne assaults) is the problem of rapidly building up your numbers.  Now I know that D-Day put the allies off night paradrops for good, but why no take-off in the dark with a drop at first light?  Then the transports can go back and load up again for another drop in daylight.

[rickshaw]

One thing I have never understood about the Arnhem landings is why they were at 2 in the afternoon   One of the problems in the assault (as in all airborne assaults) is the problem of rapidly building up your numbers.  Now I know that D-Day put the allies off night paradrops for good, but why no take-off in the dark with a drop at first light?  Then the transports can go back and load up again for another drop in daylight.

Simple answer?  The RAF preferred to do it in daylight - it made navigation much easier.   Official answer?  Weather.   Weather bedevilled the operation throughout.