Ergonomics Adaptation In Firearms

[dy031101]

I've heard a couple of instances where European firearms manufacturers appeared to have attempted their break into US firearms market by incorporating into their firearms some of the ergonomical features of US-made firearms that are afforded great affections by the US populace.

For example, CZ 40B has a redesigned grip to mimic the M1911 (although part of that is because it was a joint venture with Colt, which wanted to recover some of the lost market share)...... another one is SG556, a SG550 modified to accept aftermarket magazines and stocks for M16/AR15.

Has anyone heard of other examples?  Or even those going the other way around in that US firearms manufacturers mimicking ergonomic aspects of popular European guns to increase their chances in European markets?

[Mossie]

The American market seems to favour the traditional arrangement, whereas Bullpup designs are more popular in Europe & other parts of the world.  I'm no gun expert, the only example I can think of is the Barret M95 bullpup sniper rifle that has had export success but not been purchased by it's parent nation, they preferred the traditional M82 & the Bullpup M82A2 version of that rifle was dropped (although I believe this was more due to it's unusual shoulder firing operation than layout).

[Maverick]

It's worth noting that whilst bullpup weapons have a shorter overall length for a given barrel length compared to tradition longarms, the loading sequence is very unnatural and requires the firer to move the weapon away from the aimed position.  I was surprised when Australia replaced its SLRs with the Austeyr, but unsurprisingly, the M4 & M16 remain favourites with special forces here.

I think the US market (both civil & military) is quite traditional and given their influence throughout the free world, it's not really surprising that they have no interest in adopting 'unusual' weapons, altho the stillborn OICW system is one that breaks the trend.

Modifying a weapon to accept US style magazines is fairly sensible IMO, standardisation can't hurt at all in that way.  Although I think it's more a case of playing to or competing with a possible US market rather than a true desire to standardise a particular design.  The US will, however, adopt 'foreign' weapons enmasse where appropriate, such as the MP5, M9 Beretta & M249 SAW.

That standardisation can be a problem however - the adoption of the 7.62mm NATO round by the US & NATO was a classic example.  We could have had lighter 'sub-calibre' weapons well before they finally adopted them in the early 60s, altho the USMC stalled on their own M16 refit.  However, once the US decided that 5.56mm was the way to go, it didn't take awfully long for other nations (NATO & WARPAC included) to head down similar roads.

[anthonyp]

While not reading any of the other posts, I've always had a soft spot for the aborted XM8.  I've even got an Airsoft version of it  

It should be noted that this thing is ergo enabled as (at least on the airsoft version) you can cock it using either hand.

[dragon]

I've heard a couple of instances where European firearms manufacturers appeared to have attempted their break into US firearms market by incorporating into their firearms some of the ergonomical features of US-made firearms that are afforded great affections by the US populace.

For example, CZ 40B has a redesigned grip to mimic the M1911 (although part of that is because it was a joint venture with Colt, which wanted to recover some of the lost market share)...... another one is SG556, a SG550 modified to accept aftermarket magazines and stocks for M16/AR15.

Has anyone heard of other examples?  Or even those going the other way around in that US firearms manufacturers mimicking ergonomic aspects of popular European guns to increase their chances in European markets?

The one ergonomic feature I would like to see in US designed firearms is the Walther/H&K abidextrous magazine release.  I have used the traditional "American" magazine release, and the Walther ambidextrous release (exp: Walther P-99).  To me it makes much more body mechanics' sense- there is much more strength in the movement required for the Walther release than what is required in the button type release (using the side of the thumb).  At the same time it takes the trigger finger off the trigger while reloading- much safer versus self inflicted unintentional firearms wounds.

[anthonyp]

Mav, Rick, you might want to take your discussion to PM, since it's gone off on a tangent away from ergo guns.

Another ergo gun I like is the P90 (Stargate:  SG-1 made me like it     ):

[dragon]

Mav, Rick, you might want to take your discussion to PM, since it's gone off on a tangent away from ergo guns.

Another ergo gun I like is the P90 (Stargate:  SG-1 made me like it     ):

The only thing Stargate got right was how to hold the weapon, I suspect.  Like all Hollywood they seem to think an SMG should be able to be accurate out to 200+ metres!   

The P90 is an interesting weapon, I'll admit.  Its an odd calibre and there have been reports of poor reliability but apart from that, its an interesting approach to the problem of a IDW.  Personally, I suspect that if you need to fight, you really need a rifle, not a pistol and something is in between won't cut it either.  I used to refuse SMGs and M16s when offered them and instead carried a normal service rifle on the basis of that theory.

On the other hand, the P90 has been used in the real world already, with success.  The first time I remember seeing it in action was at the end of an embassy seige in Peru in the late 1990's, where the entry team was armed with the P90.  It did the job well.  The round works fairly well too.  It was with that same round that the Major shot up Fort Hood with (using from a pistol).

[Weaver]

As I understand it, the problem with the P90 is that a hard knock can disrupt the stack of rounds in the magazine, leading to mis-feeds. I don't know if a solution has been found for this yet.

[Taiidantomcat]

Mav, Rick, you might want to take your discussion to PM, since it's gone off on a tangent away from ergo guns.

Another ergo gun I like is the P90 (Stargate:  SG-1 made me like it     ):

The only thing Stargate got right was how to hold the weapon, I suspect.  Like all Hollywood they seem to think an SMG should be able to be accurate out to 200+ metres!   

The P90 is an interesting weapon, I'll admit.  Its an odd calibre and there have been reports of poor reliability but apart from that, its an interesting approach to the problem of a IDW.  Personally, I suspect that if you need to fight, you really need a rifle, not a pistol and something is in between won't cut it either.  I used to refuse SMGs and M16s when offered them and instead carried a normal service rifle on the basis of that theory.

On the other hand, the P90 has been used in the real world already, with success.  The first time I remember seeing it in action was at the end of an embassy seige in Peru in the late 1990's, where the entry team was armed with the P90.  It did the job well.  The round works fairly well too.  It was with that same round that the Major shot up Fort Hood with (using from a pistol).

Not to take away from the Majors' ability to shoot unarmed and unsuspecting people, but none were wearing armor of any sort. why SMGs are not real popular amongst US forces, compared to carbines.

[pyro-manic]

Isn't the FN Five-seveN 5.7mm round (as used in the P90) designed for good armour-penetration though? Not as good as a rifle round, but much better than other "pistol" calibre ones?

[anthonyp]

Who frakking cares?  Get back to "what feels good in the shooter's hand!"

[dy031101]

Although not quite the same nature as that of other examples, the Taiwanese T65 in its earliest prototype form was practically a slightly modified AR-18.  Then the M16A1 got introduced into paratrooper and military police units, however, and the American-made rifle was sufficiently well-liked (compared to the M1 carbine and the M14/T57 rifle) such that the external ergonomics of the T65 were altered to match it.

[Taiidantomcat]

Isn't the FN Five-seveN 5.7mm round (as used in the P90) designed for good armour-penetration though? Not as good as a rifle round, but much better than other "pistol" calibre ones?

Yes. I should have also noted there are range issues as well though. I know in the states there are many trying to ban the FN 5.7 pistol as it is considered an anti Body Armor weapon thus a "cop killer". I have no doubt it is more effective in this area, but (I am guessing- please correct me if I'm wrong) a rifle round fired from a carbine is going to have an advantage over the P-90. Its all trade offs of course. The 5.7 pistol may be well ahead of other hand guns in this department, and comparing a carbine to a pistol is not really fair so it could be quite effective as far as handguns are concerned. I still prefer a carbine to the p 90 but again trade offs, the SMG will be more compact and easier to wield etc. and a bunch of other factors that have been debated to death with no clear winner in much more detailed gun forums so I will just say...

The P90 is amazing innovative. right down to the how the cartridge casings are ejected through the bottom of the handle. I Like that they were basically willing to start from scratch and design something very unique and yet functional. Not a lot of folks rewrite the book on things and this was very bold.

I do think its interesting just how many rifles are ergonomically designed to mimic either the M-16 or AK. Pretty amazing when you think of all the variants and copies that try to replicate one or the other and from so many different nations.

[Maverick]

Ben,

I guess that reinventing the wheel isn't too high on firearms manufacturers' lists.  Realistically, pistols are pretty hard to redesign without some real lateral thinking and beyond bullpups, longarms have a pretty baseline formula to follow: barrel, gas assembly, forestock, receiver group (including mag & pistol grip) and finally stock.  Bits and bobs can be added but you can't really delete much so the basic concept remains the same regardless.

Weapons like the P-90 break the mould but don't find a huge amount of sales because many agencies whether military or civilian are fairly conservative in nature when it comes to issue firearms.  Take the police here in Victoria, Australia.  We've only just seen the issue of semi-auto pistols (mind you a poor choice of particular weapon, but I digress).  For decades they used K-frame S&W revolvers in .38cal.  I used the same weapon on duty as a correctional officer.  Reliable, yes but 6 rounds before reloading compared to many equally reliable autopistols packing 12 or more rounds and you can see the inequity of the situation.  That said, the powers that be believed that the rather dated 'six-shooter' was more than adequate for the role.

Regards,

Mav

[dy031101]

Smith & Wesson's collabouration with Walther on P99 is another one.  I remember coming across an article on it, which mentioned a few changes to conform to American shooting habits- the only one I can remember, however, is the trigger guard, the explanation being that American shooters don't press their non-trigger index finger onto the front of trigger guard.



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For decades they used K-frame S&W revolvers in .38cal.  I used the same weapon on duty as a correctional officer.  Reliable, yes but 6 rounds before reloading compared to many equally reliable autopistols packing 12 or more rounds and you can see the inequity of the situation.  That said, the powers that be believed that the rather dated 'six-shooter' was more than adequate for the role.

A few years ago I read somewhere that Singaporean police's new issue handgun is a .38 Special revolver with a laser aiming aid.

But then again we're talking about Singapore, a country with more ways than a powerful police handgun to bring a law-breaker into a world of hurt  



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I know it might not be that much of an ergonomics issue (meaning I'm going a bit off-topic again  )...... but does anyone know any bolt action rifle that takes M14/M1A detachable magazines, preferably without having to make modification to the mags?  Thanks in advance.