MARTEL (AS-37 and AJ-168), ARMAT, Sea Eagle, and OTOMAT Guided Missile

[kitnut617]

I was reading my copy of the WarPaint Avro Vulcan last night, and I came across an interesting snippet of info.  It says that during the Falklands conflict, the Martel was fitted to a Vulcan but it didn't go into service with the Vulcan, the text says that all the Martels were assigned to the Nimrod fleet  --- what is that all about ?  Anyone seen any Nimrod with Martels attached ?

[RLBH]

I was reading my copy of the WarPaint Avro Vulcan last night, and I came across an interesting snippet of info.  It says that during the Falklands conflict, the Martel was fitted to a Vulcan but it didn't go into service with the Vulcan, the text says that all the Martels were assigned to the Nimrod fleet  --- what is that all about ?  Anyone seen any Nimrod with Martels attached ?

XV148 flew trials with Martel using the hardpoints later used for Sidewinder. One of the crew seats was known as the 'Martel position' since that was were the control panel went, although the weapon was never actually carried in service. Given that Martel was basically an anti-ship missile, Nimrod was quite a sensible platform.

[kitnut617]

I was reading my copy of the WarPaint Avro Vulcan last night, and I came across an interesting snippet of info.  It says that during the Falklands conflict, the Martel was fitted to a Vulcan but it didn't go into service with the Vulcan, the text says that all the Martels were assigned to the Nimrod fleet  --- what is that all about ?  Anyone seen any Nimrod with Martels attached ?

XV148 flew trials with Martel using the hardpoints later used for Sidewinder. One of the crew seats was known as the 'Martel position' since that was were the control panel went, although the weapon was never actually carried in service. Given that Martel was basically an anti-ship missile, Nimrod was quite a sensible platform.

Thanks for that, but my info says the Martel was an anti-radiation missile.  Maybe you're thinking about the Sea Eagle version ---

[PR19_Kit]

Thanks for that, but my info says the Martel was an anti-radiation missile.  Maybe you're thinking about the Sea Eagle version ---

Robert,

Wasn't there a TV guided version of the Martel too? I'm sure I've seen piccies of one with a curved glass nose piece.

[kitnut617]

Thanks for that, but my info says the Martel was an anti-radiation missile.  Maybe you're thinking about the Sea Eagle version ---

Robert,

Wasn't there a TV guided version of the Martel too? I'm sure I've seen piccies of one with a curved glass nose piece.

Yes, you're right there was.

[Weaver]

I was reading my copy of the WarPaint Avro Vulcan last night, and I came across an interesting snippet of info.  It says that during the Falklands conflict, the Martel was fitted to a Vulcan but it didn't go into service with the Vulcan, the text says that all the Martels were assigned to the Nimrod fleet  --- what is that all about ?  Anyone seen any Nimrod with Martels attached ?

XV148 flew trials with Martel using the hardpoints later used for Sidewinder. One of the crew seats was known as the 'Martel position' since that was were the control panel went, although the weapon was never actually carried in service. Given that Martel was basically an anti-ship missile, Nimrod was quite a sensible platform.

Thanks for that, but my info says the Martel was an anti-radiation missile.  Maybe you're thinking about the Sea Eagle version ---

AS.37 Martel may have used passive anti-radar homing, but it's designated role in the RAF was as an anti-ship weapon and it was only issued to maritime-tasked Buccaneer squadrons. The idea was that anti-ship Buccs would use a mixture of AS.37s and TV-guided AJ.168 Martels: the anti-radar rounds would cripple the ship's defenses, thus allowing the Buccs to close in and finish it off with the TV rounds. You never saw Martel of either kind on RAF Germany Buccs, indeed IIRC, RAF Germany mostly had the earlier airframes without the modified pylons and wiring for Martel.

That isn't to say AS.37 couldn't attack land targets though. It was originally slated for use against Argentine air defence radars during the Black Buck Vulcan raids on the Falklands, but it was replaced by Shrike when concerns were raised about it freezing up on a long, high-level flight that it was never designed for. The Black Buck Vulcan airframes were chosed specifically because they'd been modified to accept Skybolt before it was cancelled, which meant they had hardpoints for pylons under the wings and tubes for the wiring, which could be adapted for use with the ARMs.

France, which only used the AS.37 version, was a bit more creative in it's tasking, using it on Jaguars and various Mirages against sea and land targets. AS.37's main limitation was that it had (like Shrike) to be pre-loaded, before flight, with a specific receiver module for the type of radar anticipated. The French went on to unilaterally develop the AS.137 ARMAT from it which had an in-flight re-programmable receiver. It's understood that Iraqi Mirage F1s used ARMAT, and possibly AS.37, against Iranian land-based radars during the Iran-Iraq war.

[kitnut617]

Very interesting stuff Weaver, but reading a book called 'An Illustrated Guide to Modern Airborne Missiles' written by Bill Gunston. it doesn't mention it's an anti-ship missile at all.  It says the name Martel comes from 'Missile Anti Radar TELivision'

Also it says the AS.37 could be pre-programmed with a number of different wave lengths which the seeker can match with should the radar frequency not be known before hand.  Once it finds one to match it fires and homes in automatically.

For the AJ.168 it says the operator can study the target using the TV camera, lock-on to a specific point, then fire the missile.  Presumably the 'study' is to pick out a radar dish or control center. The missile can be steered during flight.  

As far as I can determine it is designed to knock out radar (not ships as you say)

[rickshaw]

Very interesting stuff Weaver, but reading a book called 'An Illustrated Guide to Mordern Airborne Missiles' written by Bill Gunston. it doesn't mention it's an anti-ship missile at all.  It says the name Martel comes from 'Missile Anti Radar TELivision'

Well, the Big Boys' Book of World Knowledge suggests there are a few IMHO rather important commas that you've missed out in the nomenclature - "Missile, Anti-Radiation, Television."  The commas are important as they seperate the alternative types of homing utilised in different versions.  It also suggests:

he task of the Martel was quite oriented to anti-ship attacks with its long range and heavy warhead. There was not, at the time, a small radar homing missile like the AGM-84 Harpoon with an active radar, so the only viable solution was a TV or ARM sensor. With a relatively long range, a heavy payload, and a subsonic speed, this missile compares more to an anti-ship weapon like the Exocet or the AS.34 Kormoran than an anti-radar missile. It weighs three times as much as the AGM-45 Shrike, with half the speed but much greater range and explosive power.

That concurs with my copy of Jane's, oh, and the Hippo Book on missiles.

[kitnut617]

Doing a google search reveals it's an and/or missile.

PS, the 'commas' don't make any difference as far as I can see, some sites have them and some don't

[GTX]

Well, the Big Boys' Book of World Knowledge suggests there are a few IMHO rather important commas that you've missed out in the nomenclature - "Missile, Anti-Radiation, Television." 

Wikipedia is far from a defining reference source

Greg

[rickshaw]

Well, the Big Boys' Book of World Knowledge suggests there are a few IMHO rather important commas that you've missed out in the nomenclature - "Missile, Anti-Radiation, Television." 

Wikipedia is far from a defining reference source

Greg

Why do you think I derisively gave it, it's new name?   

[Weaver]

Very interesting stuff Weaver, but reading a book called 'An Illustrated Guide to Modern Airborne Missiles' written by Bill Gunston. it doesn't mention it's an anti-ship missile at all.  It says the name Martel comes from 'Missile Anti Radar TELivision'

Also it says the AS.37 could be pre-programmed with a number of different wave lengths which the seeker can match with should the radar frequency not be known before hand.  Once it finds one to match it fires and homes in automatically.

For the AJ.168 it says the operator can study the target using the TV camera, lock-on to a specific point, then fire the missile.  Presumably the 'study' is to pick out a radar dish or control center. The missile can be steered during flight.  

As far as I can determine it is designed to knock out radar (not ships as you say)

Missing the point a bit here:

Obviously, an anti-radar missile can home in on any radar it can "hear" and a TV missile can be steered towards anything it can "see". What I said is that the RAF (and only the RAF) bought and used the Martel exclusively as an anti-ship weapon, that is to say, it was only issued to the Bucc squadrons tasked with maritime strike. The AS.37s would have homed in on the ships' radars, cripping their defences, and the Buccs would then have closed the range and finished them off with AJ.168s. The scheme to use it against land radars in the Falklands was an
improvisation. Personally, I think this was short-sighted and it would have been better for them to experiment with it against a wider target set. I think the reason they didn't was that it was originally bought against an explicitly anti-ship requirement and was regarded as a bit of a disappointment, so they didn't buy any more than was neccessary to arm the maritime Bucc squadrons.

The French and Iraqis have used ARMAT against land radars and would presumably have used AS.37 if the timeframe had been earlier. Likewise, US carrier aircraft have used HARMs against Libyan (and Iraqi/Iranian?) warships, despite the fact that they're not defined as an "anti-ship" weapon.

There's lots more about Martel in BSP 4 - Missiles and Hypersonics.

Wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martel_(missile)

[kitnut617]

Missing the point a bit here:

I was going by the book I have Weaver, which doesn't say it was an ant-ship version.  Google search does however say that was what the RAF used it for. 

My interest is because my thinking is that using an expensive bit of kit to take out a dish (easily replaced) doesn't make sense, taking out the control van would be much more worth while. Once the missile picks up a signal, the TV operator could then use the camera to look around the launch site to see if the control van is nearby, then lock onto that before firing.
Robert

[Mossie]

It's a fairly common approach to attack a fleet with anti-radar missiles.  Similar to a land based threat, you take out their ability to detect you first.  It's also going to more significant damage to a surface vessel as you can't seperate the transmitter from the ship.  'Double whammy' loads of anti-ship & anti-radar missiles can sometimes be seen carried by certain maritime strike aircraft, the buddy system also applies.

[Weaver]

Missing the point a bit here:

I was going by the book I have Weaver, which doesn't say it was an ant-ship version.  Google search does however say that was what the RAF used it for.  

My interest is because my thinking is that using an expensive bit of kit to take out a dish (easily replaced) doesn't make sense, taking out the control van would be much more worth while. Once the missile picks up a signal, the TV operator could then use the camera to look around the launch site to see if the control van is nearby, then lock onto that before firing.
Robert

That's exactly the logic behind the typical USAF Wild Weasel setup, where an F-4G would take out the radar dish with a Shrike/Standard/HARM first, and then close in to finish off the rest of the hardware (control vans, launchers etc..) with Maverick or CBUs. The problem is that the latter weapons have a relatively short range, so you need to take out the dish first in order to get close enough to use them. A dish may be easily replaced, but it's not quick to replace. Destroying the dish is what lets you get close enough to take out the rest of the system, but they're two separate functions that have to be done one after another (dish first, then cabin), hence the use of separate weapons.

One of the strands of the extensive upgrade work to to HARM during it's life had been to equip it with a more sensitive fuse and a more lethal fragmentation warhead, so that it actually does take out the control van by exploding at the aerial, rather than after punching through it, thereby sending a shower of penetrating fragments through anything underneath it. Of course, this only works if the aerial is actually on top of the control van instead of remote from it.

In the context of anti-ship work with Martel, it was a bit different. Martel was a MUCH bigger missile than Shrike or HARM, had a warhead more than three times the size of HARM's, and it wasn't a sea-skimmer. This means the ship would have been hit by a 1000lb missile with a 330lb warhead, going downhill at a fairly steep angle at Mach 0.9. That may not have sunk it, but it would have done a fair bit more than just take out the dish. However, the non-sea-skimming approach made the missile vulnerable to point defence weapons and this, together with the need to sacrifice a pylon for a datalink pod to use the TV version, probably explains the RAF's lukewarm attitude to the weapon.

If I'm reading you right, you're thinking that the TV-guided Martel could lock onto a radar signal and then have it's TV seeker steered onto a control van, yes? If so, then that's not possible: the TV version ONLY had a TV seeker and the anti-radar version ONLY had a radar receiver.

Very interesting stuff Weaver, but reading a book called 'An Illustrated Guide to Modern Airborne Missiles' written by Bill Gunston. it doesn't mention it's an anti-ship missile at all.  It says the name Martel comes from 'Missile Anti Radar TELivision'

I've got that book too (I presume: Salamander, 1983?). If your edition is the same as mine, then the caption for the upper picture is wrong: it says "AJ.168 'British Martel...' but the picture is actually an AS.37. Not exactly confidence-inspiring.....