avatar_Jschmus

Aoshima

Started by Jschmus, January 28, 2010, 02:13:01 PM

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GTX

QuoteYou just choose not to use them and and such wont fit a ski-jump,

Actually, as I understand it, the Canberra class will have the ski-jumps fitted.

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Thorvic

Quote from: GTX on December 13, 2010, 11:37:19 PM
QuoteYou just choose not to use them and and such wont fit a ski-jump,

Actually, as I understand it, the Canberra class will have the ski-jumps fitted.

Regards,

Greg

Now that does seem daft if the Australian Armed forces don't intend to use STOVL aircraft as it does occupy space that could be better used for helo launch & recovery (as per USN Wasp class - which do infact operate STOVL aircraft.... :banghead:).

Unless of course that means the Australian Armed forces do think they may procure/lease STOVL aircraft once the Canberras are in service ? :-\.

Now what we really need is for somebody to do a kit of the Juan Carlos/Canberra class  ;D
Project Cancelled SIG Secretary, specialising in post war British RN warships, RN and RAF aircraft projects. Also USN and Russian warships

anthonyp

Quote from: Thorvic on December 14, 2010, 04:52:06 AM
Quote from: GTX on December 13, 2010, 11:37:19 PM
QuoteYou just choose not to use them and and such wont fit a ski-jump,

Actually, as I understand it, the Canberra class will have the ski-jumps fitted.

Regards,

Greg

Now that does seem daft if the Australian Armed forces don't intend to use STOVL aircraft as it does occupy space that could be better used for helo launch & recovery (as per USN Wasp class - which do infact operate STOVL aircraft.... :banghead:).

Unless of course that means the Australian Armed forces do think they may procure/lease STOVL aircraft once the Canberras are in service ? :-\.

Now what we really need is for somebody to do a kit of the Juan Carlos/Canberra class  ;D

That, and re-engineering the hull would have cost more than they wanted to spend.  They've always had their eye on renewing a naval air component, but haven't had the money.  The Juan Carlos I class offered good growth for the future, should they pursue the F-35B eventually.
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rickshaw

One thing I've never quite understood is why no one has designed a flightdeck with an elevating ski-jump.  It would allow the use of either choppers or STOVL aircraft without too much trouble.  You could also alter the angle of the ski-jump, allowing CTOL aircraft to utilise it.  It wouldn't take much to put a couple of hefty hydraulic rams and some hinges onto the flight deck to make it work.

The CANBERRA class will be fitted with a fixed ski-jump.  It was cheaper to accept them with than to have them built without.  Artist's impression:



How to reduce carbon emissions - Tip #1 - Walk to the Bar for drinks.

anthonyp

Quote from: rickshaw on December 14, 2010, 08:22:01 PM
One thing I've never quite understood is why no one has designed a flightdeck with an elevating ski-jump.  It would allow the use of either choppers or STOVL aircraft without too much trouble.  You could also alter the angle of the ski-jump, allowing CTOL aircraft to utilise it.  It wouldn't take much to put a couple of hefty hydraulic rams and some hinges onto the flight deck to make it work.


Over-engineering.  That's why.  The cost of a variable ski-jump on a carrier would add a lot to the cost.  Even though the solution might seem simple, defense engineering teams would guarantee it would cost more than common sense should say.

Back to the thread (before I split it), me want Aoshima Hyuga models!!!!!!!!
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GTX

#35
QuoteUnless of course that means the Australian Armed forces do think they may procure/lease STOVL aircraft once the Canberras are in service ? Undecided

Maybe... :rolleyes:.  There is also the ability to allow allied nations' (say USMC) aircraft to use it.

Quotere-engineering the hull would have cost more than they wanted to spend.

Spot on!

QuoteThe cost of a variable ski-jump on a carrier would add a lot to the cost.

Correct again + how often would it really be used (i.e.angle changed)?  Would this justify the extra complexity/cost?

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

PR19_Kit

The world's very first ski-jump, the land based one at RAE Bedford, was built with a variable angle capability to see how the concept worked with various setting. As I recall the three Invincible class 'carriers' had three different angles to their jumps at one stage in their history.

I can't imagine it would cost THAT much to add it to a ship, unless of course the Government concerned had the same value judgement as a banker....
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

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Regards
Kit

rickshaw

If the variable ramp had say three settings - down, half-way and up, and gave back, at the down position an extra landing spot for choppers while giving the ship the ability to launch aircraft when required at the two raised positions (half-way for propeller driven AEW/COD, fully up for jet aircraft), I think it would be good value for money.  Its utility would outweigh the costs IMHO.

As Kit has mentioned, in the early days they experimented.  At one point IIRC they even developed a ski-ramp for land use utilising bridging components. 
How to reduce carbon emissions - Tip #1 - Walk to the Bar for drinks.

GTX

Quote from: PR19_Kit on December 15, 2010, 12:50:16 AM
The world's very first ski-jump, the land based one at RAE Bedford, was built with a variable angle capability to see how the concept worked with various setting. As I recall the three Invincible class 'carriers' had three different angles to their jumps at one stage in their history.

I can't imagine it would cost THAT much to add it to a ship, unless of course the Government concerned had the same value judgement as a banker....

A land based one used for R&D is a totally different proposition to an actual operational ship based one.   Think of the changes to ship structure to deal with differing loads, the need for machinery (which also needs to be maintained!)...all for something that will confer minimal extra benefit.  And what happens if it jams in a position you don't want it?  I seriously doubt anyone could mount a justifiable argument for doing it.

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Weaver

"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
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kitbasher

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Captain Canada

It look asymmetric as well.....where's Tophe ?

:tornado:
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PR19_Kit

Quote from: rickshaw on December 15, 2010, 02:58:10 AM
As Kit has mentioned, in the early days they experimented.  At one point IIRC they even developed a ski-ramp for land use utilising bridging components. 

In passing I've found out recently that that work was carried out right here in Lydney! Mabey and Johnson, the manufacturers of the current British Army and US Army bridging systems, did the work and there's a faded photo of the ramp on their walls, not 2 miles from my house. The thing was then re-built at RAE Bedford but I can't find out if it replaced the ski-jump that John Farley used or was in addition to it.
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Weaver

Quote from: Captain Canada on December 25, 2013, 06:56:31 AM
It look asymmetric as well.....where's Tophe ?

:tornado:

It's not asymetric:




My first thought was that you could make it into a more real world design with a real canopy and a T-tail for effective elevators, but now I look at it from this angle, I realise that the trailing edge is thick and square cut.

"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones

Captain Canada

Ahh...the tips are folded down ! Neat stuff ! There were some giant aeroplanes like that in the Ace Combat series of games. Always neat to see, but too easy to shoot down  :thumbsup:
CANADA KICKS arse !!!!

Long Live the Commonwealth !!!
Vive les Canadiens !
Where's my beer ?