F-35B may well become a What-if program !

[royabulgaf]

Two important items:
1. Britain and France are seriously talking about naval interoperability.  However,
2.  When it comes to parts and service, if you are dealing with regular maintenance items, Monseiur Goodwrench will be quite adequate.  But if you are in a high-use situation with accelerated wear and tear, the RN and USN have close working relationships going back 70 years, and the USN operates worldwide. 

Were it a straight military question, it would be the superbug hands down.  However, politically the naval Rafale would be the better choice.

[GTX]

I will grant you that in the UK's case, provided the new Defence Treaty/co-operation with France delivers as promised, then the possibility of RN FAA Rafales could be practical.  If nothing else, they will look cool - especially in a commemorative scheme . 

Similarly, the RN FAA would also be served well by SHs (ditto the commemorative scheme ). 

I'm also sure Dassault and Boeing will both be offering (if they haven't already) extremely attractive acquisition packages to the UK - both would love to take down a F-35 customer, as would Saab and the other major manufacturers.

I guess we will have to wait and see.

regards,

Greg

[rickshaw]

I know many current and former RAAF guys who will challenge you re the support offered when the RAAF had Mirage IIIs.

I have also dealt with EADS, Thales and Eurocopter (yes, I know they are not Dassault, but they are similar IMHO) in recent years and can say I was less than impressed with the level of support shown.   Concurrently, the level of support from the USA companies during the same time has been light years ahead.  Again, this is only my opinion.

Comparing Mirage III support to F-100 support is hardly fair - I would ask back who are the users of the Mirage IIIs vs the F-100s? For the current Mirage III operators, do they have much other choice?  Are they getting their support from France - Pakistan for one is largely self sufficient.

Also, dare I also say that every F-100 user, with the exception of France (and to a degree Taiwan - though that is more complicated) replaced their F-100s with more American sourced equipment. 

Regards,

Greg

On reflection, the F-100 might not be perhaps the comparison.  However, it was the first that leapt to mind.  Perhaps the F-104 might be a better one.  Both it and the Mirage III were often in competition for the same contracts.  Whereas Lockheed often used bribery to win them, I'm unaware of Dassault being implicated in the same way, so I'd assume it won more on merit than trickery.

I believe there are still more Mirages than F-104 flying.  However, the F-104 was license manufactured, so spares could be sourced from multiple sources.  Apart from the USA, it was license manufacturer in Canada, Japan and Italy IIRC (it might have been built elsewhere but I can't find anything to say so in a quick google).  The F-100 OTOH was not, being only manufactured in the US.  Once the F-100 left the USAF's inventory, it rapidly disappeared from foreign inventories.  The F-104 lingered on, because of the license manufacture but after it was replaced by newer designs, rapidly disappeared.  The Mirage was manufactured in France and under license in Australia and as far as I am aware, Switzerland and Belgium.  Israel copied it and undertook unlicensed manufacture.  Despite the fewer sources of spares, the aircraft is still in use in six nations whereas the F-100 and the F-104 are both no longer in operational use. The longevity of Dassault aircraft is rather obvious IMHO.

I suspect though that this sort of argument verges on religious fervour for some and so I'll bow out.

[Taiidantomcat]

Two important items:
1. Britain and France are seriously talking about naval interoperability.  However,
2.  When it comes to parts and service, if you are dealing with regular maintenance items, Monseiur Goodwrench will be quite adequate.  But if you are in a high-use situation with accelerated wear and tear, the RN and USN have close working relationships going back 70 years, and the USN operates worldwide. 

Were it a straight military question, it would be the superbug hands down.  However, politically the naval Rafale would be the better choice.

Well said. 

[Fulcrum]

Wow...

American F-18E &/or F-35 verus French Rafale...

over British aircraft carriers.

There is no simple answer/solution to this debate/discussion/arguement.

My 2 cents(Canadian cents, that is)...
I really am indifferent about the F-35(I dont' like yet I don't hate it ), if anyone wants to buy it, good for them. Yet if the F-35 fails(& it's only an if), then the Americans should plan on advanced F-15/F-16/F-18E as an insurance against it for them & their allies.
The problem with Rafale is that although it is a good plane, no one appears to be able to want it for some odd, strange reason(Brazil & India are sure taking their time in choosing their new jets )
The problem with the Royal Navy is that it is not what it used to be(Pax Britannia have come & gone) though they try to stay involved in major international affairs to stay revelant(i.e. Falklands & Iraq).
The regretable mistake for the FAA is that there is no true, indigineous aircraft makers anymore in Britian as it's aircraft industry has/or is going the way Canada's aircraft industry went a while ago(BAe with the F-35 is similar to Canadair with the CF-5 with regards to production). Fewer countries today can afford to design, produce & field their own locally-designed jets(Saab might be on it's way after it finishes with the Gripen).
The issue with aircraft orders are that they are political moves. As Canada, Britian & Australia are allies of the U.S., they will buy U.S. aircraft. It is not to say that France, Sweden & other European countries are not allies of the U.S., but their political agendas are different from the anglophone countries(a case in point is the lead-up to the Iraq war). Heck, even bribery could be involved(as with the Czech lease of their Gripens).

I am sorry if I am too political, or if I have hurt/insulted anybody's feelings in this post(I am trying to be neutral here).

[Thorvic]

At present its the F-35C for the UK and they are gambling on being able to use the Tornado for strike should the need arise in the next 9 years.

On the political from the first part of the SDSR promoted stronger working ties with both the US & France as our closest allies, should the need arise and the JCA requirement becomes somewhat more urgent and the F-35C is still handicapped by a prolonged development cycle and spiraling costs then its possible they would look at alternatives.  As a whole the Super Hornet would currently better meet those needs as a carrier capable aircraft to replace the Tornado for the RAF and for the FAA, however if they are looking at purely the FAA to create a carrier air group then they would be a Strong case for the Rafale.

Its the Anglo/Franco cooperation agreement that's the key here, especially regarding the carriers, as the discussions and procedures come to fruition over the coming years, should a delay with the F-35C bring its selection for JCA into question then rest assured that the french will push very strongly for a Rafale based solution which would probably tie the FAA closer to the MN rather than the RAF !. Politics will be the driving force, operationally the FAA would obviously prefer the SH as that's what they are currently being trained upon if given the option should JCA need to be revised, but they are not the ones to make the decisions !.

[The Wooksta!]

No, money is the driving force given the near bankrupt state we're in.  And if it comes to cutting the NHS or the Navy, then the latter will be deep sixed.

My own feeling?  Scrap the lot and go neutral.  Sod being a policeman for the rest of the world - they don't want it anyway so why should we waste good money and good mens lives for nowt?

[pwagner]

The problem with Rafale is that although it is a good plane, no one appears to be able to want it for some odd, strange reason

The reason the Rafale isn't selling is all those countries who got Mirages (IIIs, Vs, F1, and 2000s) have all learned through bitter experience that Dassault is, well, a bit lethargic when it comes to spares and general support. Don't get me wrong, I love the Rafale, and I have a mate (well, mate's dad) who was a RAAF pilot and swears the Mirage, when flown correctly, was unbeatable....

...but....

Even though we made them under licence, still needed support from Dassault that was simply not forthcoming in a timely fashion. I've also heard Taiwan has the same issues - their Mirage 2000s are, as a combat plane, way better than their F16s, but they just can't keep them flying, largely because Dassault sux in their after-sales service. And now, with the Rafale, it's come back to bite them.

Personally, I'd be over the moon if the WHOLE F35 project became a Whiff - it's a total hunk of junk that's being forced on us for political reasons, and really deserves to collapse. The USN can buy Rafales and the USAF can buy Typhoons and the USMC can resurrect the Hawker P1216

Paul

[beowulf]

Sod being a policeman for the rest of the world - they don't want it anyway so why should we waste good money and good mens lives for nowt?

quoted for truth 

i agree with pwagner.......the whole thing is becoming a white elephant for political reasons.......personally he whole thing dosnt impress me

[kitnut617]

My own feeling?  Scrap the lot and go neutral. 

Do you think all the other countries that Britain 'policed' will let you go neutral ??

[GTX]

Brazil & India are sure taking their time in choosing their new jets

Politics and inefficient systems in both countries my friend - not really a surprise when you look into them more.

Regards,

Greg

[GTX]

At present its the F-35C for the UK and they are gambling on being able to use the Tornado for strike should the need arise in the next 9 years.

Daring back into the realm of whiff...what about a Tornado GR.5 with systems from the modern jets (e.g. AESA radar, newer engines...).

Regards,

Greg

[Litvyak]

According to wikileaks "French representatives have tried to spin the Rafale's dismal performance in the global market to be the result of U.S. government political pressure rather than the aircraft's shortcomings" What you choose to believe is up to you, but you don't have the money for any "do overs" so please choose wisely.

And in other wikileaked documents regarding Brazil, they said to play up the Rafale's misfeatures and play down the Super Hornet's misfeatures to convince the Brazilians to buy the SH.

*shrug*

What I think? I'm getting less convinced about the F-35 by the day, and I was never all that hot on it. But, this is Lockheed we're talking about. Deal of the Century v2.0 anyone? 

Personally, I think Canada should drop the F-35 and get Rafales or Su-30MKIs instead.

[GTX]

As Canada, Britian & Australia are allies of the U.S., they will buy U.S. aircraft.

You know, I often see this sort of issue raised (it often comes up in Australia), but there is no real truth to it.  Looking at Australia's aircraft acquisitions over recent years:

Super Hornet - USA
Classic Hornet - USA
KC-30 - European (if we only bought US sourced equipment why not go for the 767?)
Tiger ARH - European (again, why not go for the AH-64?)
MRH-90 - European (beet of more upgrade Blackhawks
Sea Hawk - USA
Black Hawk - USA
737 Wedgetail - USA, mind you there isn't really a non-USA based option here
Chinook - USA - ditto
C-130J - USA (but we're aren't exactly alone in operating C-130s!)
C-17 - USA, but again what real option was there
PC-9 - Swiss.  Replacement also highly likely to be Swiss, aka PC-21
Hawk 127 - UK (beat off T-45 from USA)
Bombardier Challenger - Canadian

I think you will find the same for most modern countries.  They buy a mix and match of equipment, for multiple reasons.  So long as they do the job required and where necessary, are interoperable both with their own forces and those of likely allies.

Regards,

Greg

[GTX]

it's a total hunk of junk that's being forced on us for political reasons, and really deserves to collapse.

I'd like you to be able to justify those statements.

Greg