F-35B may well become a What-if program !

[Litvyak]

C-17 - USA, but again what real option was there

Il-76.

Seriously. It's a good plane.

The Canadian Forces keep leasing them when they need to go somewhere... may as well just buy some outright.

[GTX]

C-17 - USA, but again what real option was there

Il-76.

Seriously. It's a good plane.

The Canadian Forces keep leasing them when they need to go somewhere... may as well just buy some outright.

Note, I said real option!

Regards,

Greg

[kitnut617]

C-17 - USA, but again what real option was there

Il-76.

Seriously. It's a good plane.

The Canadian Forces keep leasing them when they need to go somewhere... may as well just buy some outright.

The CAF has C-17's (almost as many as the RAF), why would it buy Il-76's

[Maverick]

I'd like you to be able to justify those statements.

Greg,

I think we all know that's a can of worms with detractors & supporters galore who can justify their statements quite easily but be disbelieved by the other side just as easily.

Regards,

Mav

[Litvyak]

@GTX: Why is it not a real option? Just because it's not built by Anglophones?

@kitnut: Yes, I know CF has C-17s... why do they keep leasing Il-76 and An-124 then for deployments e.g. for Haiti?

[Taiidantomcat]

No, money is the driving force given the near bankrupt state we're in.  And if it comes to cutting the NHS or the Navy, then the latter will be deep sixed.

My own feeling?  Scrap the lot and go neutral.  Sod being a policeman for the rest of the world - they don't want it anyway so why should we waste good money and good mens lives for nowt?

Unfortunately getting rid of cops doesn't reduce crime, anymore than ridding yourself of a doctor cures your cancer. If current trends continue you will indeed get your chance to see the whole lot scrapped, but the worldwide commitments will remain. If you believe the UK is the US's lackey this is great news. But, if you believe the UK is one of the few nations left who is willing to fight for what they believe in, and at one time was the only thing stopping an occupied Europe along with being a beacon the world over for freedom and greatness, the news is not so cheery. give it time, i promise your military will be gone soon enough... And that big American brother you loathe to help, may be your last chance. 

Personally, I'd be over the moon if the WHOLE F35 project became a Whiff - it's a total hunk of junk that's being forced on us for political reasons, and really deserves to collapse. The USN can buy Rafales and the USAF can buy Typhoons and the USMC can resurrect the Hawker P1216

Paul

Its realistic, thats what I like about it.

Sod being a policeman for the rest of the world - they don't want it anyway so why should we waste good money and good mens lives for nowt?

quoted for truth 

i agree with pwagner.......the whole thing is becoming a white elephant for political reasons.......personally he whole thing dosnt impress me

Maybe for you. For the US its the future, I would hate for you to miss out on it. I, like Greg, am very curious about where all this hate/expert analysis come from.

Is there any chance the F-35 could reach service in an actual operational squadron and get maybe one or two exercises or even some combat under its belt before you completely dismiss it as a disaster before it has served even a single day?

[Taiidantomcat]

@kitnut: Yes, I know CF has C-17s... why do they keep leasing Il-76 and An-124 then for deployments e.g. for Haiti?

Leasing is not buying, and sometimes you need more transports than you have? Thats just a guess, but it makes sense to me.

[kitnut617]

why do they keep leasing An-124 then for deployments

Probably for the same reason the USMC do and the RAF too, come to think of it.

[GTX]

I think we all know that's a can of worms with detractors & supporters galore who can justify their statements quite easily but be disbelieved by the other side just as easily.

True.

I suppose, I will take such comments personally though since my company is one of the ones involved in the F-35 program.  I know for a fact that not only my company, but many others are working extremely hard on this program and are delivering good work.  I am not kidding when I say, the cost/schedule/quality requirements on this program are extremely tight.  In fact, if you are not a world class provider, you simply won't be able to meet the requirements, and even then some don't make it. 

To exemplify what I mean: I have been in a meeting in Fort Worth, TX where senior Lockheed Martin Execs just 'carved up' the CEO of a manufacturing company (which, I would emphasise has a long history of delivering, high quality products with many on the F-35s already flying!) saying that despite their products already meeting targets, that if they find someone who delivers the same for a dollar less, then they will switch!  That's how difficult and how ruthless it can be.  It also shows that you have to remain 'sharp' to be part of this program.

When people start making disparaging remarks that the entire program is "a total hunk of junk", then to me that is also saying that all the hard work people have put in and continue to put in is also a "junk"!  Maybe that isn't what is meant, but it is what is heard/implied!  The same goes when I hear comments such "it deserves to collapse".  This again discounts all the hard work put in by hundreds, if not thousands of people!

Similarly, and beyond the aspects listed above, I am also privileged to get many of the inside briefings both from Lockheed Martin and their partners (e.g. Northrop Grumman, BAE Systems,  both engine teams as well as the various suppliers to all), the Australian Government as well as the JSF Program Office (JPO).  When you start seeing all the real information (I'm talking about actually demonstrable evidence) of the capabilities of this aircraft, you are truly impressed with what it will deliver.  I am talking about a real generation change here!  I only wish some of this information was available for showing to the nay-sayers (though some of these would still be against it even then since all they truly want is to have the F-35 as a 'notch on the belt'!).  Unfortunately, the nature of the information and the need for security limit this being shown to the general public! 

Maybe this will explain why I am passionate about the F-35.

regards,

Greg

[Taiidantomcat]

I think we all know that's a can of worms with detractors & supporters galore who can justify their statements quite easily but be disbelieved by the other side just as easily.

Similarly, and beyond the aspects listed above, I am also privileged to get many of the inside briefings both from Lockheed Martin and their partners (e.g. Northrop Grumman, BAE Systems,  both engine teams as well as the various suppliers to all), the Australian Government as well as the JSF Program Office (JPO).  When you start seeing all the real information (I'm talking about actually demonstrable evidence) of the capabilities of this aircraft, you are truly impressed with what it will deliver.  I am talking about a real generation change here!  I only wish some of this information was available for showing to the nay-sayers (though some of these would still be against it even then since all they truly want is to have the F-35 as a 'notch on the belt'!).  Unfortunately, the nature of the information and the need for security limit this being shown to the general public!  

Maybe this will explain why I am passionate about the F-35.

regards,

Greg

Everyone I know who works with this program is excited about it. Everyone near it says its going to be a "game changing" aircraft. I don't know a single person who is involved with it that believes it won't deliver and then some. A buddy of mine texted me early this morning to tell me he was lucky enough to go to Edwards AFB and actually see an F-35 up close. People are pumped the USMC especially. That doesn't happen every day. I am here to tell you that when the USMC was working on the V-22 it was literally grim... now eventually that was replaced with cautious optimism and now of course the V-22 is combat deployed with 5,000 hours under its belt. I never saw the level of excitement for the V-22 (in some individual cases I still don't) that I do for the F-35B. I know Marines who think it is too good to be true, that at the last second something will happen and they will lose it. That tells you something.

Is it possible... and i know it sounds crazy... Maybe the people in Uniform and the aviation industry actually know what they are doing? it sounds odd I know, and I am one of those people when i get injured i don't think "doctor" (I mean what do they know about the human body?) I think "cab driver." But this might be one of those (rare) cases where the people who do it for a living and know their job very well might be right... long shot I know. As for politicians trying to "push it on us" its quite the opposite. There are plenty of politicians who can't wait to kill that thing which is why the problems get so much press, and why the pressure is so intense.

[jcf]

Unfortunately, the nature of the information and the need for security limit this being shown to the general public! 

Yep, it is a lot different when one is on the inside, as I know from my Boeing days.

Also my wife went from the 787 program to the Product Development side of BCA
and there is stuff she can't share with me. 

[Maverick]

Without being inflamatory, I don't think most people think it's actually useless as an airframe.  In fact, it seems suited for the type of warfare the US in particular wages.  My main concern is whether it is good for the RAAF and Australia in general.  It might well be all singing & dancing with capabilities beyond and too secret, but do we as a nation need the type?

I appreciate there are jobs & companies who obviously want the aircraft here, that makes financial sense to them, but does it give the same benefit to the ADF?  Do we really need a 'stealth', 'first strike' (and all the other monikers) platform in the first instance?  Will we only go to war with the US by our side and never by ourselves? (Unfortunately, that's most likely true.)  Will we go to war in the near future (with the exception of a particularly ill-fated mission that we are currently saddled with)?  In the sort of tactical environments that we find ourselves in, does the ADF need the 'cutting edge' capabilities of the platform?  How is a aircraft of this type going to help bombing 3rd world terrorists with any greater capability that say the Super Hornets we have already bought?

I've no doubt that the US armed forces are excited.  The US army was equally excited about the Stryker too, although that wasn't quite as successful as advertised was it?  But does that mean that the ADF or anyone else for that matter need to buy it because the US is?  Are we keeping up with the Joneses in a rather big arena?

I think these are valid questions.  They aren't politically motivated, they aren't from a rival company or airframe, they are considering our armed forces and the personnel therein.

Regards,

Mav

[Litvyak]

why do they keep leasing An-124 then for deployments

Probably for the same reason the USMC do and the RAF too, come to think of it.

I like how you removed "Il-76" from my question... so the question still stands.

Back on topic:

I too know someone at Lockheed who is just as stoked on the F-35 as anyone else there. But what else would you expect? Every employee of a company is stoked on their latest product...

Yes, a lot of the information is secret and can't be revealed, but as far as anyone on the outside can know, that's just words: many aircraft have promised many things and ultimately did not deliver. So, until these super capabilities are demonstrated, skepticism is the best course of action. As it stands, LM is essentially doing the same thing they do in church: asking you to just believe what they say, without giving any proof. That said, I'm fairly confident it'll be a great plane for a specific role, a good counterpart to the F-22...

But as previously mentioned in an Australian context, my primary concern is, does the F-35 fit Canada's needs? I'm not convinced it does - even if some of the secret aspects of it include phasers and photon torpedoes. Then there's the upwards-spiralling costs (which as anywhere will be passed on to the end user). I'm quite sure that Canada's needs could be met with any one of the F-15SE, or the F/A-18E, or the Rafale, or the Gripen, or the Typhoon... and probably at considerably less cost than the final price of the F-35 will be.

[Taiidantomcat]

why do they keep leasing An-124 then for deployments

Probably for the same reason the USMC do and the RAF too, come to think of it.

I like how you removed "Il-76" from my question... so the question still stands.

Back on topic:

Every employee of a company is stoked on their latest product...

Not really, no. And I have no idea why the folks in uniform who have no financial incentives are so hot on it then.

Isn't funny how many Canadians wanted the F-22, and now that they can't get it they think the F-35 isn't what they need and is too expensive? Thats really odd. They needed the expensive are dominance fighter, not the cheaper multi role fighter.

[rickshaw]

C-17 - USA, but again what real option was there

Il-76.

Seriously. It's a good plane.

The Canadian Forces keep leasing them when they need to go somewhere... may as well just buy some outright.

Note, I said real option!

Regards,

Greg

While its out of production the Russians are apparently restarting production as the Il476.  So why isn't it a "real" option, Greg?