Air Launched Subs

Zombolt · February 15, 2011, 01:45:41 PM

I hope you don't mind another idea, but I watched a show on a Discovery spin off channel that had a submersible called the SDV. I thought it looked kinda small. Then I had the idea of a Air launched version, from a Pave Low or Black hawk. This then led to a few more idea's. Some were WW2 Flying boats launching British X craft(Mini Subs) against a harbor, Using a large transport(c-17,c-5) to deploy point attack Submarines, For the Soviet end, a Ekranoplan/WIG craft dropping spy subs, and similar.

I hope you don't mind another odd idea from Zombolt.

Weaver · February 15, 2011, 02:36:41 PM

What occurs to me is to use one of those twin-hull Savoi-Marchetti flying boats to carry and launch a mini-sub from under the centre-section. That would also fit well, because Italy was a pioneer in the use of mini-subs and similar technologies.

deathjester · February 15, 2011, 02:49:58 PM

Not implausible - air dropped torps are usually retarded by a small parachute, so they enter the water in a stable fashion without breaking up. You could do the same with a chariot style vehicle ( a torpedo with controls fitted ) and them parachute the frogmen down to it. Your flying boat could then recover the men after the attack.

Weaver · February 15, 2011, 02:52:46 PM

With a flying boat, it would probably be easier to land to drop the sub off. You could even glide in from some distance away for a silent approach.

deathjester · February 16, 2011, 02:55:04 AM

Quote from: Weaver on February 15, 2011, 02:52:46 PM
With a flying boat, it would probably be easier to land to drop the sub off. You could even glide in from some distance away for a silent approach.

Yes! Much better idea!
A flight of flying boats could launch quite a few of those, couldn't they - how many do you think would be reasonable?

Hobbes · February 16, 2011, 03:02:28 AM

An air launch means a huge deceleration when the torpedo hits the water. It wouldn't be easy to make that survivable for the crew. A sea plane is better.

But an aircraft is easy to detect; if you approach at very low level you can get to ~40 km without being seen by surface radar; if the enemy has AEW you need several hundred km of standoff range.

deathjester · February 16, 2011, 03:11:35 AM

Quote from: Hobbes on February 16, 2011, 03:02:28 AM
An air launch means a huge deceleration when the torpedo hits the water. It wouldn't be easy to make that survivable for the crew. A sea plane is better.

But an aircraft is easy to detect; if you approach at very low level you can get to ~40 km without being seen by surface radar; if the enemy has AEW you need several hundred km of standoff range.

Yes, that's why you parachute the crew in after you drop the torp.

You're quite right, the plane might be detectable, but at that range, the enemy won't know what you're up to.....

Weaver · February 16, 2011, 04:23:02 AM

Well I was thinking more about the WWII scenario where radar wasn't as common or capable.

It terms of capacity, it depends on the subs and the planes. Chariots were based on 21" torpedoes, so I'm guessing they weighed about 4000lb. The Savoia-Marchetti S.66 could probably have carried only one, but there were WAY more powerful flying boats than that: it only had 3 x 750bhp engines.

tigercat · February 16, 2011, 04:39:41 AM

The Air Dropped lifeboats used by B17's weighed around 3000 ib's

Of course the Me 323 Gigant could carry 2 Biber submarines from a payload point of view. Working out how to air launch them would be another kettle of fish.

I wonder what the maximum no of torpedoes that could be carried by any 1 aircraft a Salvo of 6- 8 torpedoes from 1 aircraft would be very difficult to avoid although any aircraft big enough to carry that many would make a huge target.

deathjester · February 16, 2011, 05:33:54 AM

I was thinking of a Sunderland - should be able to carry a couple of Chariots.

Rheged · February 16, 2011, 06:37:07 AM

How about a Martin Mariner, a Short Shetland or even (at the risk of sounding boring) a Saro Princess? They could easily land offshore and send in chariots or possibly an X craft, given some safe means of unloading into the briny deep. perhaps a rear hatchway and/or gantry. This is WHATIF after all.

jcf · February 16, 2011, 01:25:05 PM

Quote from: Weaver on February 16, 2011, 04:23:02 AM
Well I was thinking more about the WWII scenario where radar wasn't as common or capable.

It terms of capacity, it depends on the subs and the planes. Chariots were based on 21" torpedoes, so I'm guessing they weighed about 4000lb. The Savoia-Marchetti S.66 could probably have carried only one, but there were WAY more powerful flying boats than that: it only had 3 x 750bhp engines.

Real world possibility, Tupolev ANT-22/MK-1:

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/sww2/mk1.html

Whifverse, Boeing Model 320.

NARSES2 · February 17, 2011, 12:39:05 AM

Where's the cockpit on that ANT 22 ?

McColm · February 17, 2011, 01:01:14 AM

Hello,
Back in the 1990s the US Navy built a resuce sub similar idea to the one used in the film 'Hunt for Red October'. They held trials using a C-5 and C-141Bs to see if they could launch it in mid-flight. Empty void of crew and remote controlled, hights decreased and a crew was used. Whiplash and spinal injures, plus getting the angle of impact into and through the water were tried.
The US Navy gave up in the end, although trials with a jet/rocket pack attached to the sub at the entry point at whilst flying at low level had a better chance of success.

Weaver · February 17, 2011, 01:57:36 PM

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on February 16, 2011, 01:25:05 PM
Real world possibility, Tupolev ANT-22/MK-1:

That's neat - never seen one before.

You could almost see it as a logical extension of the Savoias: three S.55 engine pairs on a S.66 hull.