Guns On Guns - Grenade Launcher And Shotgun Attachments On Rifles

[Mossie]

I was passed a book a few years ago, 'Five Fingers' by Gayle Rivers, cover looked like a comic book & I was doubtful about it, but needn't have been.  It's passed off as a true story, wether or not it is I couldn't tell you.  'Galye Rivers' is New Zealand SAS sent to 'advise' in Vietnam, he's part of a deniable team sent to assasinate a Chinese military advisor.  It's a very good, gritty book, worth picking up if you can find it these days.

Reason I mention it, his weapon of choice for jungle warfare is a shotgun, (and not part of a combined weapon).  His reasoning is that it's more effective at the short ranges usually encountered in a jungle & lessens the chance of a blue-on-blue by not passing far through undergrowth.

[sotoolslinger]

That is an awesome book. I read that one a long time ago.

[Mossie]

Great isn't it?   I don't know if he was real NZSAS or had any other military connections, but from this laymans point of view, he seemed to know his stuff.

It also seems to suggest that the idea for using shotguns in combat & as part of combo weapons has come from the experience of those at the sharp end, rather than being led by brass or Weapons manufacturers.

[sotoolslinger]

There is a not bad Vietnam flick called Platoon Leader you might want to check out. The Grizzled Sergeant character used a Winchester pump to good effect.

[pyro-manic]

Apparently shotguns were horribly effective for trench-clearing in the First World War.

[Mossie]

There is a not bad Vietnam flick called Platoon Leader you might want to check out. The Grizzled Sergeant character used a Winchester pump to good effect.

I'll look out for it, cheers!

[Maverick]

I've seen quite a few pics of Vietnam where the point man is carrying a pump gun, usually the Remington 870.  Equally so, I've also seen photos of SAS troops in Borneo using a shotgun for just the same reason (ie: effective within the short-range jungle contacts).  As Sotool mentioned, they were quite popular with SF types, the SEALs used them by the bucketload and weren't adverse to carrying a couple of different weapons.

Platoon Leader is quite a good flick.  For a Michael Dudikoff movie, I was pleasantly surprised.  It has quite a 'gung ho' feel to it, more like 'Green Berets' than 'Platoon' and was a refreshing change from the usually somber movies about the conflict that were popular at the time.

Regards,

Mav

[rickshaw]

SOP for the Australian Army in Jungle is for the Lead Scout ("pointman" in US jargon) to have a choice of weapons.  Usually an F88 carbine nowadays or a shotgun.  "Tail End Charlie" - last rifleman in the rifle group also gets a choice - usually a F88 nowadays or a shotgun.   We use a pump action - not sure what model, my copy of Ian Skennerton's "Australian Army Service Long Arms" is on loan at the moment but IIRC it has an entry for it.  Unfortunately, all the shotguns were withdrawn at the end of Vietnam and as I enlisted in '77, I just missed out on training with them.

Shotguns are good for very short range work, crowd control, room clearing, etc., but not much more.  I've seen a proposal for shotguns also be issued as PDWs - on the theory that "Pogues" can't hit anything, anyway.  As an ex-"Pogue" I've offered to take that person to the range and challenge them to stand on the Butts at 300 metres and we'll see if I can hit him with a rifle.  Funnily enough, he never took me up. 

My opinion on PDWs is that you're better off issuing rifles 'cause when the pooh hits the fan, you'll need a proper longarm anyway and with modern ones, particularly bullpups, they don't cause many problems if slung properly.

[Cliffy B]

The only problem with using shotguns in combat, that I can see, is re-loading.  One shell at a time takes a while.  Yes, it allows you to top off your mag quickly or use a mixed load for certain applications.  Yes they, have shotguns with box magazines, but they have few shells.  Drum mags have more shells but are huge in comparison.  Problem is standard 12 gauge shells are just plain large, when compared to rifle rounds.  So carrying an appreciable amount becomes burdens some.  I'm not a soldier though, just a civilian making observations.  What are your insights on this gents?

[rickshaw]

The only problem with using shotguns in combat, that I can see, is re-loading.  One shell at a time takes a while.  Yes, it allows you to top off your mag quickly or use a mixed load for certain applications.  Yes they, have shotguns with box magazines, but they have few shells.  Drum mags have more shells but are huge in comparison.  Problem is standard 12 gauge shells are just plain large, when compared to rifle rounds.  So carrying an appreciable amount becomes burdens some.  I'm not a soldier though, just a civilian making observations.  What are your insights on this gents?

I'm assuming you're talking about a pump-action?  SOP would be to reload whenever you get a chance, don't wait for the magazine tube to empty if you can avoid it.   Just as with a rifle.  You're constantly topping up magazines whenever there is a lull.

One of the problems with using a shotgun too often is the danger of "cook offs".  It was what stopped the adoption of the various semi-automatic/fully-automatic shotguns by military forces.  'cause standard shotgun rounds are plastic, they are very susceptible to heat and so there is a real danger of them "cooking off" when they get loaded into a very hot chamber.   There are various videos on youtube which demonstrate it, if you want to look for them.   When the US Army was trying to develop a "Combat Shotgun" which was semi-automatic called the "CAWS" - Close Assault Weapon System - they had to go to a metal cased round, which of course drove the price up and so it was never adopted.  See - http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/de/hk-caws-e.html for more info.

[sotoolslinger]

Cliffy you are of course correct on the bulk of a shotgun (round) and they are freakin heavy. The properly trained shotgunner tops the weapon off every few rounds fired. Shoot a couple ,load a couple . This is one of the advantages of the shotgun(and the lever action)  Pump action with magazine the length of the barrel is the perferred weapon. Everything else is just a gimmick.  The effectivness of the round is the saving grace of the system.  Against single targets at proper ranges there are basically no failures to stop the opponent.  At slightly longer ranges you are putting out anywhere from  20 .27 caliber projectiles to 8 .38 caliber ball depending on loads (and those are just factory buckshot) There are all the nifty specialty rounds you can load too. Lockbusters, buck and ball, bolo loads , slugs, non lethal etc.
My personal preference was to have the shotgun tightly choked back in the day. Nowdays you can have a shotgun backbored. This is a nifty mod which makes a 12 gauge (bore to y'all  ) a 10 gauge up till almost the muzzle. This basically fools the shot column into thinking it is tightly choked, reduces recoil ,and tightens patterns .
The Remington I played around with would put 8 000(triple ought) buck into 10 inches at 50 yards

[pyro-manic]

The only problem with using shotguns in combat, that I can see, is re-loading.  One shell at a time takes a while.  Yes, it allows you to top off your mag quickly or use a mixed load for certain applications.  Yes they, have shotguns with box magazines, but they have few shells.  Drum mags have more shells but are huge in comparison.  Problem is standard 12 gauge shells are just plain large, when compared to rifle rounds.  So carrying an appreciable amount becomes burdens some.  I'm not a soldier though, just a civilian making observations.  What are your insights on this gents?

I would guess that rate of fire is going to be quite a bit lower with a shotgun than for an assault rifle anyway, so carrying huge amounts of ammunition isn't quite as essential as you won't use as much.

[renax]

Have fun

http://renax-models.blogspot.com/2011/01/gun.html

[Old Wombat]

The Bushmaster ACR (formerly Magpul Masada) is a weapon that I am surprised hasn't been picked up by the military to any great extent.

I particularly like the 6.8mm round it was initially designed to use, because it is light enough to allow troops to carry more ammo but heavy enough to pack a real punch, with good penetration & long-range ballistic stability.

Combine that with the weapon's ability to swap between calibres & it's a pretty functional weapon. I believe 5.56mm NATO, 6.8mm Remington, 7.62mm NATO & 7.62mm SOV were trialled & I'm pretty sure that 5.56mm NATO, 6.8mm Remington & 7.62mm SOV conversions are currently available.

Here's a piece done on Future Weapons, some time ago. http://www.bushmaster.com/acr/#/caliber-change

[rickshaw]

The Bushmaster ACR (formerly Magpul Masada) is a weapon that I am surprised hasn't been picked up by the military to any great extent.

Sorry, those sorts of gun nut videos I find really worrisome.

I particularly like the 6.8mm round it was initially designed to use, because it is light enough to allow troops to carry more ammo but heavy enough to pack a real punch, with good penetration & long-range ballistic stability.

6.8mm is a good round, although its a shame that 7mm was never given the chance it should have been in 1954.  6.8mm is simply trying to duplicate its specification.

Combine that with the weapon's ability to swap between calibres & it's a pretty functional weapon. I believe 5.56mm NATO, 6.8mm Remington, 7.62mm NATO & 7.62mm SOV were trialled & I'm pretty sure that 5.56mm NATO, 6.8mm Remington & 7.62mm SOV conversions are currently available.

Here's a piece done on Future Weapons, some time ago. http://www.bushmaster.com/acr/#/caliber-change

Gimmicks which normal infantry will never ever need.   Unnecessary complications and I'm sorry, just so much wankery as far as I'm concerned.   I'd rather a weapon which does one job well than one that does 10 jobs badly.  The modular design is well thought out, I admit but I wonder about its durability compared to a weapon that is designed and built with a single purpose in mind.

I must admit I am very partial to bullpups having used one.   I find the American reluctance to use them rather strange but then, when the M14 was adopted, American gun nuts spent an awfully lot of energy try to convince the rest of the world that a pistol grip as on the FAL was a bad idea as well.  Like then, most of the arguments against bullpups tend to be rather spurious and based upon ignorance.