RAAF Camo Schem Query

[Cobra]

Hey Guys, was Just wondering if Anyone knows where i can find info on Camo Schemes for RAAF Aircraft? have some ideas but thought i'd Q you guys about it.  i'd like to know if there are Any Restrictions on Camo Colors,Etc. think i can get some Info,Please?  thanks for looking.Dan

[Maverick]

Dan,

Most of the Aussies (me included) on here are pretty clued up on the colour schemes used.  PM myself or any of the others and I'm sure we'll be able to answer any queries.

There's also the picture galleries on ADF-Serials.com.au.

Regards,

Mav

[Mossie]

I would suggest Don Color, but unfortunately it seems to have been for a few months.  This happened before it came back again, I hope it isn't gone for good as it was a useful reference.

IPMS Stockholm lists the RAAF wartime colours & gives FS equivalents:
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_australia.htm

[Maverick]

Simon,

given that the FS system didn't come into play until 1956, I really have a problem with suggestions that older colours necessarily have a FS equivalent.  They've tried the same game with RLM and BS colours and have failed miserably.  Equally so, I know of at least two variations on the Foliage Green colour (one that was uniquely Australian) and the FS equivalent they mention doesn't cut it either way in my opinion.

Although Dan's query didn't relate to WW2 material as such, I'd suggest reading this article:

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/foliagegreenrefgb_1.htm

This point in particular tends to sum up the situation:

"Unfortunately there is a considerable bloc within the modelling community that fervently believes every colour ever created and used on military aircraft is covered by a Federal Standard number. This is simply not true because the Federal Standard is only the latest in a line of standards that have developed through the years. In reality, the current US Federal Standard 595 is a guide for contractors supplying materiel to the US Government."

To be frank, I find it a little irksome that someone in Sweden can produce such a 'reference'.  What the Swedes had to do with Australian paint standards during the 1940s is, quite frankly, beyond me and to suggest that they are some sort of authority on the subject is equally offensive.

I'm not just being ticked off about the RAAF colours here, it's the suggestion that any colour reference can be routinely placed upon another with accuracy.  Are FS colours replicated by the RLM system?  I hardly think so.  I can just see the uproar suggesting that an F-15 might be able to be painted in the 'equivalent' RLM colours, or BS or any other for that matter.

Whatever modelling snobbery surrounds the issue of FS595 being the final word in colour is quite beyond me.  It's fine within its own genre (ie: US aircraft post 1956 and those that have been painted to that standard).  To suggest it can be uniformly applied to any era of any country is simply rubbish.

Sorry for the rant, but it's a point that I feel strongly about.

Regards,

Mav

[Old Wombat]

Agreed, Mav, & where do batch variations come into the picture, too (is there a FS number for Batch No. 12345/678 made in 1944 & stored in Darwin until used in 1966 )?


However, Cobra, there are sites which will give you a general idea of the colours & (if you want them) FS numbers to get an approximate match (Mav's right, Aussie colours don't match well with FS).

[Mossie]

They don't make any claims that it's a perfect reference or that FS595 is holy scripture, in fact they make a stament to the contrary.
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_accuracy.htm

Frankly, I find it irksome that I'm getting jumped on for providing a little help to a forum member.  There's no need for this kind of attack & I refer you to number 5 of the forums rules entitled 'sniping'.  Time to tone things down. No need to take offence at an individual in another country trying provide a little guidance in a minefield.

EDITED

[Old Wombat]

Chill out, Mossie! No personal attack intended from me, man, & I'm pretty sure Mav was just venting in general, not at you in particular!

[Mossie]

OW, it wasn't aimed at you.  I'm getting a bit sick of this sniping which seems to be on the increase at moment.  John may have have been venting, but it was excessive & I was named.

I've re-read my post & realised I've made a comment that could be misconstrued, I've edited it accordingly.

[Old Wombat]

Mossie, I know IPMS Stockholm don't claim to have FS595 perfect, unfortunately there are some judges out there who take it as gospel.

I haven't built any competition models, myself, but I do know that some guys who go out of their way to exactly match the colours of various aircraft & vehicles (taking into account scale variation & everything) can get a bit peeved when a JMN judge marks them down because the colours didn't match the FS595 spec - even though they have had evidence of the actual colours in the display.

Anyway, not that I have any real idea (coz I build What If's & Sci Fi, paying careful attention not to pay attention to FS595) but, Cobra,... if you're still reading this...are you talking WW2, Korea, Viet Nam or modern camouflage schemes? Or all of the above?

[Cobra]

I'm talking more towards Modern RAAF Camo. hope this helps. Dan

[Maverick]

Simon, I never meant to personally attack you.  I don't believe I did and meant no offence.  My personal beef was the suggestion by others (not yourself) that the FS595 series is somehow gospel when considering aircraft colours.  I specifically stated that it was a 'rant' and therefore not a personal attack, but I'm sure some in the UK would feel as strongly if the FS595 system was touted as something that the BS could be replaced with rather than using actual colour charts and values of the BS system.

In closing, I don't believe it was sniping, a personal attack or other form of offence.

Regards,

Mav

[Old Wombat]

I'm talking more towards Modern RAAF Camo. hope this helps. Dan

Currently the RAAF has gone over-all low-vis grey as per the photo's below.









I'm not 100% sure but I think they're just using the standard US colours - however you may want to keep an eye on Mav's posts here (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,31829.0.html), too.

[Maverick]

OW, I'd suggest you're quite right about the use of FS colours for many of the RAAF's current fleet.  Australian Aviation mentions that the lighter grey Hawks use the same colours as the Hornet as well and even our earlier wraparound camouflage for the Hercs and Caribous used FS colours (excepting the 'Outback / Pizza' scheme on the 'Bous - there's still quite a debate on those colours.  Initially, we (that is the ADF) used colours of the original schemes the types flew in (eg: A-4G in Gull Grey over White, F-111C in SEA, etc) but we've also deviated once in service (eg: Canberras in Vietnam, the aforementioned 'Outback' scheme and even the other tactical wraps used by the transports).  Interestingly, the wraparound camo for the A-4Gs used BS381C colours.

Regards,

Mav

[Old Wombat]

...snip...eg: A-4G in Gull Grey over White...snip...Interestingly, the wraparound camo for the A-4Gs used BS381C colours.

Regards,

Mav

Also of interest is that in the early 1980's, at the squadron level, VC724 & VS851 did not stock gull grey for touch ups. I was in 851 at the time & we had 2 paints we used, I can't remember what the colours were but they were significantly darker & lighter (ditto 724).

[Maverick]

OW, that really explains it well.  Whilst governments might well have colour standards, do these get rigorously adhered to everywhere?  The simple answer is no.  That really is applicable regardless of the era I think, although as technology continues to advance and manufacturing processes improve, one would consider paint standards would also improve, but only for those who have those standards in the first place.  To retrospectively place modern standards on previous eras is, as I have said, an error in itself.

Regards,

Mav