alternative tanker air-to-air refueling aircraft

McColm · March 09, 2011, 04:17:46 AM

Hi,
I've never been in an aircraft whilst its either refueling or fueling another aircraft. I've been on board a VC-10 tanker, a Vulcan and a Victor at an airshow.
I know that turbulence plays its role in the slipstream of tanker aircraft and also the takeoff weight. Which is why I've gone for the What-if the...was a tanker.
I've never heard or seen helicopters used as buddy refuelers either. Fighter aircraft are ruled out as we could be here for a very long time discussing this.
The largest aircraft that could possibly be used in reality would be the C-17. I know some whiffers have used an Airbus -380, I've also suggested the BAe Nimrod MK2 and MK4, a long with the Lockheed Neptune.
These are proposed aircraft that were never actual tankers during their service lives
The B-52 has to be in the running.
B-1B
B-2
Tu-142-Bear
BAe 146- a proposal was made into a lockup and a model built as a sample but never made it into production.
Any others?

Maverick · March 09, 2011, 04:32:09 AM

Another aspect to consider is the use of the 'flying boom' system, which considerably eases the dramas associated with IFR via a drogue & hose. Unfortunately, of course, the USAF are the only users of the system from memory, but it does give the various B- aircraft something to consider.

An important consideration with tankers is their secondary cargo role and fuel volume to be viable aircraft. Bombers & the like aren't routinely built with large cavities (excepting the bomb-bay) which tends to negate any cargo capacity or even extra fuel carriage. 'Bomber' types that did make the transition were of course the A-3 and A-6 and with 'buddy' refuelling pods almost anything can serve as a tanker in a pinch, but the baseline requirement is usually internal volume which continues to be the domain of the airliner/transport type.

Regards,

Mav

McColm · March 09, 2011, 05:50:53 AM

Thanks Mav,
That's why I added the Whiff bit for all you budding builders, to join in.

pyro-manic · March 09, 2011, 07:05:10 AM

How about "emergency" tankers? Say a war breaks out suddenly, and lots of tankers are lost (shot down or destroyed on the ground) - an emergency conversion programme is implemented, taking civilian airliners and adding refuelling pods to them. So any medium-sized airliner, adding two wing-mounted drogue pods, and basic self-defence systems (off-the-shelf RWR, chaff and flare launchers). Quickly repainted in a basic grey, or even just strip the airline names off and add roundels.

Hobbes · March 09, 2011, 08:29:24 AM

Helicopters would be difficult to use as tankers; the rotor downwash makes the drogue move around more. It's not impossible, though, the Americans have refueling probes on some CH-53s. If it can receive fuel that way, using it as a tanker might work.

The BAe-146 has very limited cargo capacity.

I'd take the Tu-114 or An-22 over the Bear due to the internal volume issue mentioned by Mav.

PR19_Kit · March 09, 2011, 09:31:12 AM

As the Russians use the IL-76 as a tanker, how about the USAF using the C-141 in a similar role?

It would need some trick engineering to fit a flying boom to a C-141, perhaps attach it to the bottom of a set of non-opening cargo doors, but carrying a pair of hose reels should be easy.

jcf · March 09, 2011, 11:25:55 AM

To date the largest aircraft tested/used in the tanker role is the 747.

Aerial refueling of helicopters has been in use since the 1960s and, in theory, a large helicopter could
probably refuel a smaller machine. However there aint' much point as the fuel fractions simply aren't there.

Converting an airliner to a tanker is way more complicated than just attaching a refueling pod, the aircraft
has to have its fuel system plumbing and controls modified to connect with the pod. Structural mods are
also required.

apophenia · March 09, 2011, 01:44:48 PM

Quote from: pyro-manic on March 09, 2011, 07:05:10 AM
How about "emergency" tankers? Say a war breaks out suddenly, and lots of tankers are lost (shot down or destroyed on the ground) - an emergency conversion programme is implemented, taking civilian airliners and adding refuelling pods to them. So any medium-sized airliner, adding two wing-mounted drogue pods, and basic self-defence systems (off-the-shelf RWR, chaff and flare launchers). Quickly repainted in a basic grey, or even just strip the airline names off and add roundels.

An easy conversion would be adding mounting points for the Airbus MRTT wing pods on civilian A310 and A330s. Arrange something akin to the USAF Civil Reserve Air Fleet to organize (and subsidize) the airlines. When the balloon goes up, fit the pods, IFR drogue operator's station, countermeasures suite, etc., and you're off to the races.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mrtt/

rickshaw · March 09, 2011, 07:58:46 PM

Several possibilities spring to mind.

American:
DC8
DC9
737
727
757
777
787

French:
Caravelle - Mach 2 do a 1/72 kit and Airfix did a 1/144 one
Mercure

Russian:
AN-125
AN-225
Tu-104
Tu-107
Tu-110
Tu-124
Tu-114
Tu-154

British:
Sperrin
Trident

pyro-manic · March 09, 2011, 08:36:20 PM

I'd like to see a 757 - it's one of my favourite airliners (there was a RNZAF one that did an amazing display at Kemble a few years ago). Also the BAC 1-11, and maybe the Convair 880/990?

Hobbes · March 10, 2011, 12:10:28 AM

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on March 09, 2011, 11:25:55 AM

Converting an airliner to a tanker is way more complicated than just attaching a refueling pod, the aircraft
has to have its fuel system plumbing and controls modified to connect with the pod. Structural mods are
also required.

For an emergency conversion maybe you can get away with using tanks in the cabin only, i.e. forego attaching it to the aircraft fuel system. Install a single HDU in the cargo bay, to limit airframe modifications to a single penetration of the skin.

Maverick · March 10, 2011, 01:24:44 AM

I'm actually surprised they haven't thought of a RORO module for the C-130 to give it ad-hoc tanker capability, beyond the standard KC-130s or any other ramped cargo bird. A roll on-roll off system should take care of the structural issues that Jon alluded to and a drogue could be unreeled out the cargo bay without too much trouble I'd think.

Regards,

Mav

GTX · March 10, 2011, 01:31:24 AM

Quote from: McColm on March 09, 2011, 04:17:46 AM
B-1B

Well the B-1B has been proposed:

Regards,

Greg

scooter · March 10, 2011, 03:10:13 AM

Quote from: pyro-manic on March 09, 2011, 08:36:20 PM
I'd like to see a 757....maybe the Convair 880/990?

A buddy of mine did 880 and 990 kits with hose and drogue mods.

And while I'd love to see a KC-757, I'd really love to see a KC-737 as that "Last Gas for x nautical miles" tactical refueler. Leave the KC-10s, 135s, and 46s out where they're less apt to get shot down.

rickshaw · March 10, 2011, 03:29:34 AM

Quote from: Maverick on March 10, 2011, 01:24:44 AM
I'm actually surprised they haven't thought of a RORO module for the C-130 to give it ad-hoc tanker capability, beyond the standard KC-130s or any other ramped cargo bird. A roll on-roll off system should take care of the structural issues that Jon alluded to and a drogue could be unreeled out the cargo bay without too much trouble I'd think.

Regards,

Mav

They've done it for firefighting tanks, so it shouldn't be too hard to do with fuel tanks. Although, it should be noted most tankers use flexible tanks, rather than rigid ones, as I understand it.

If you were careful about the design of the drogues, you could borrow from trawling gear designs so that they flew "wide" and have two hose and reel units, one in each side of the cargo bay.