BAe/Boeing GR.5 / AV-8B wings-span 'What If' question????

[MAD]

Thank you one and all for your valued input and participation
I see a great joint project with this one!

rallymodeller - 'Use the idea I mentioned earlier of a "cradle" that supports the fuselage, make the wings fold at the roots. In stowed position, it looks like a normal auto-rack (albeit with solid sides instead of perforated). When it's time to fly, the train stops, the sides of the car fold down; the wings unfold. the landing gear extends and the cradle retracts, and you're good to go. A 90' long car would be able to hold the Harrier and all the necessary support equipment in a single unit, sort of a self-contained rail-borne aircraft carrier.'

I like it! Especially the idea of the sides folding down to act as part of the take off & landing platform! A great camouflage and concealment idea rallymodeller!!

The "cradle' arrangement, I would envisage would be akin to the Skyhook-type arrangement (which they call/term as a 'Trestle'. I see this 'Trestle' hydraulically or electrically retracting and storing in the well compartment of the flatcar, The well compartment itself acting as a vent for the hot exhaust gases of the Pegasus engine nozzles!   

rallymodeller - However, you're gonna want to protect that Harrier from the elements, right?

Correct! But I originally envisaged this project for Australia (although the European theme is growing on me!). I want to keep it cost effective and operationally effective! I love the idea of your use of the 89' 4" Bethlehem/Thrall Tri-level Low-Deck Auto-Rack. But to ease cost and complication, would it be viable to use a tarpaulin-type roof arrangement, which can just be whipped off?

rickshaw - 'Why not have the Harrier land, as per normal on top of the car and the wings fold outside the riggers and have the top lower itself into the car on a scissor jack and doors roll over the opening?

When he wants to take off, the doors roll back, the floor raises, he lowers the wings, starts his engines and he's away'.

Mate the problem I see with this is the top-heavy effect (centre of gravity issues) of such an arrangement, which would be potential more dangerous for the pilot, aircraft and rolling stock.

Weaver
'Another alternative, if you only want one or two aircraft, might be to use the Skyhook system, which gets over the precision landing problem. The downside would be that each Skyhook could only serve two landing pads: one in front of it and one behind'.

Mate I like the Skyhook system and its possibilities. But I am very aware of its limits (as you correctly point out!) and its complications.

tinlail
'This is ignoring that the smart way to combine trains and harriers is to dedicate the train to moving fuel and weapons and let the planes move themselves'.

A great and logical idea in itself my friend!! A system which should be seriously evaluated!!

Captain Canada
'My SHAR ( 144th sacle on the Arctic Corsair ) will be hauled down via a beartrap type device. The cable dropped from the Harrier will have conductor wires to 'talk' to the ship. The cable end will be installed into the beartrap, and the Harrier hauled down into it. Once it gets close enough, the power will be cut while an airbag simultaneously releases to catch the bird. The air is then vented from the bag until the SHAR comes to rest in it's launch cradle'.

Mate I thought of this myself earlier in my idea! But I am not too sure about the safety margins this system would impose once committed to a landing! What happens if the pilot thinks it wiser to abort and do a do around?

Captain Canada
'Loving this idea'

Thanks mate – your contribution like everyone's is valuable and appreciated

PR19_Kit
'The crosswind business really would be an issue for sure'.

Agree!!

PR19_Kit

'I favour a fold down, totally circular pad on the upper deck of the Harri-car so the aircraft could land facing into wind and then be rotated in line with the railway track, the pad folded up and then off they go'.

Something more like this? (see drawing 2)

Weaver
The key point is though folks, if you look at MAD's diagram in post #15, the Harrier's standard outriggers are wider than the flatbed. This means that however you land it, you can't stow it and have the train move off until you've done something to make the aircraft narrower. The only "standard" way to make a Harrier narrow is to support the fuselage on manually fitted jacks and then take the wing off (standard procedure for an engine-out).

Correct – you are on the money Weaver!! That's why I like the idea of the Skyhook-type retractable 'Trestle' arrangement – which will allow for a wing-root fold arrangement, and keeping within line of the width ("Loading Gauge" Thanks to Rallymodeller) of the railstock 

1. Jack the fuselage after landing (perhaps with some kind of semi-automatic mechanism) and then fold the wing inboard of the outriggers, as per MAD's drawing.

This is the system I think I consider the best, safest and simplest

3. Go to a P.1154 style tricycle undercarriage.

I must looking into this arrangement further to comprehend it!!


Rallymodeller how do you feel about giving your idea of a fold-down sided 89' 4" Bethlehem/Thrall Tri-level Low-Deck Auto-Rack - as in the form of a drawing???

Please gents, lets keep the thoughts and ideas coming, and hopefully come to a great profile finish!!

M.A.D

[rickshaw]

rickshaw - 'Why not have the Harrier land, as per normal on top of the car and the wings fold outside the riggers and have the top lower itself into the car on a scissor jack and doors roll over the opening?

When he wants to take off, the doors roll back, the floor raises, he lowers the wings, starts his engines and he's away'.

Mate the problem I see with this is the top-heavy effect (centre of gravity issues) of such an arrangement, which would be potential more dangerous for the pilot, aircraft and rolling stock.

I hope note you're assuming this sort of flying on/flying off operation would be possible while the train is moving?   

What I suggested would make the load no more top heavy than a double stack container car (of the type already mentioned).   You'd still need to secure it with chains to prevent swaying.   I'd envisage that you'd be attempting this while the train was stationary.

[Weaver]

I found a book with scale drawings of the P.1154RN with it's tricycle undercarriage, and it doesn't look as if it provides any advantage over the AV-8B outriggers: they both have a track of about 18ft. If your drawing of the Harrier on the flatbed is to scale, then it looks like any kind of wheel under the wings is out.

Having fold-up jacks raises the problem of landing precision again. If the Harrier lands off-centre, how do the jacks centre it? They can't push it sideways on it's wheels, unless you modified all the wheels to castor to 90 deg, of course...

Another way might be to have telescopic jacks: ground crew manually mate the ends of the jacks to points in the off-centre Harrier, then when the hydraulics are powered up, it lifts the aircraft off it's wheels and self-centres.

[PR19_Kit]

Please gents, lets keep the thoughts and ideas coming, and hopefully come to a great profile finish!!

The hell with just a profile, BUILD IT!    

Weaver raised a good point about centreing the aircraft on landing. When 1 Sqdn were doing their initial trials at RAF Wittrering they had some concrete pads built in the surrounding woods to practice their 'in field' operations and found the pads needed to be quite a bit larger than their original assumptions just because of the impossibility of landing the aircrfat 'on a sixpence'.

How about having a double decked platform with the upper deck supported by hover pads, then it could be moved in any direction? I've actually done this myself with a 4 poster Road Simulator at Ford's R&D site at Dunton, Essex. They needed multiple track & wheelbase positions for their simulator to test a large range of vehicles and we solved that problem by fitting each actuator with a 'hovercraft platform' and opening up the air supply when they wanted to change track or wheelbase, then we literally pushed the actuators into position. OK, it would need more effort to move a platform loaded with a Harrier, but it could be winched across or along the lower platform.

[MAD]

rickshaw - I hope note you're assuming this sort of flying on/flying off operation would be possible while the train is moving?   Blink

No mate I am not!
I might be M.A.D, but I am not crazy

Weaver - I found a book with scale drawings of the P.1154RN with it's tricycle undercarriage, and it doesn't look as if it provides any advantage over the AV-8B outriggers: they both have a track of about 18ft. If your drawing of the Harrier on the flatbed is to scale, then it looks like any kind of wheel under the wings is out.

Ha ha Scale. Whats that??
No mate, my drawings are not to scale in any way shape of form! I've just knocked them together to emphasis what I am trying to depict and portray  
I very much welcome anyone to do a scale drawing though  

Weaver - Having fold-up jacks raises the problem of landing precision again. If the Harrier lands off-centre, how do the jacks centre it?

Mate when you refer to jacks do you mean the Skyhook-type 'trestle' I have been referring too?
For this looks like it is a purpose designed platform (which I envisage retracting back down into the flatcars well, during take off and landings!)?

Weaver - They can't push it sideways on it's wheels, unless you modified all the wheels to castor to 90 deg, of course...

Good point!
Would these caster-type wheels be feasible and possible? As they make sense

Weaver - Another way might be to have telescopic jacks: ground crew manually mate the ends of the jacks to points in the off-centre Harrier, then when the hydraulics are powered up, it lifts the aircraft off it's wheels and self-centres.

Hey I like the sound of this!!
It sound simple, practical and most of all it applies K.I.S.S

This is exactly what I am talking about, when I mean that I appreciate all members thought, considerations and ideas gents

M.A.D  

[MAD]

'Drawing it and they will come! 

[MAD]

Hey gents......I don't mean to get ahead of ourselves! But this train is going to need some other specialised rail cars.............Accommodation cars, self-defence weapons capability (both air defence and ground defence........I'm thinking ADATS!!), a command car, ordinance car, maintenance/workshop car and POL car 
All to look like a commercial train!

M.A.D     

[Weaver]

Got an even K.I.S.S.ier solution to the off-centre problem: jack trucks.

You have four low-level "trucks" which correspond to the four U/C legs. Each truck has castors or ball-wheels, is U-shaped to fit around it's particular U/C leg, and has a hydraulic mechanism which can engage with the leg and lift it off the floor using a manual pump (pallet truck technology, essentially). The outrigger trucks are "free", but the nose and main trucks are attached to cables that run through fairleads in the deck at the ideal parking positions to a pair of winches mounted underneath the deck.

Mode of operation is simple:

1. Aircraft lands and switches off.

2. Ground crew (G/C) fit the trucks to the u/c legs.

3. G/C attach winch cables to the nose and main trucks and take up slack.

4. G/C pump up all four trucks until they bear the weight of the aircraft.

5. G/C run winches until aircraft is in ideal parking position. It doesn't matter how fast the winches run or in what order, they MUST bring the aircraft to it's parking position.

6. G/C attach transport frames to the airframe, which can be simple fixed ones because it MUST be in the right place now.

7. G/C lock winches and remove outrigger trucks.

8. G/C fold wings.




Advantages:

1. Needs hardly any power, and that all electrical.

2. No powered hydraulics.

3. All the hardware can be removed from the platform for landings/take-offs.

[Weaver]

Easiest way to put self-defence missiles in a train is vertical launch. Nothing to see, just some hatches on the roof of a freight car....

Ordnance is an interesting one: 1000lb bombs are non-trivial items to move, and you're going to have to move them down the train from the ordnance car to the landing pads, whatever the terrain either side of the track. I think you're going to have to carry an all-terrain loader vehicle and deploy it at your lauch site.

Fuel is also interesting: do you have it piped to the pads (quicker, but dangerous) or carried back and forth on deployed vehicles?

[rickshaw]

Easiest way to put self-defence missiles in a train is vertical launch. Nothing to see, just some hatches on the roof of a freight car....

Ordnance is an interesting one: 1000lb bombs are non-trivial items to move, and you're going to have to move them down the train from the ordnance car to the landing pads, whatever the terrain either side of the track. I think you're going to have to carry an all-terrain loader vehicle and deploy it at your lauch site.

Fuel is also interesting: do you have it piped to the pads (quicker, but dangerous) or carried back and forth on deployed vehicles?

Damn, you beat me to it.  I was just about to post about that.  Not only is the movement of ordnance and POL a problem, you have the added issue of storage of these things.  Particularly in quantity.

[PR19_Kit]

Fuel is also interesting: do you have it piped to the pads (quicker, but dangerous) or carried back and forth on deployed vehicles?

Not sure about that, aviation jet fuel isn't all that different to railway diesel fuel and the locos carry lots more than a Harrier in their underfloor tanks. Similar tanks could be fitted outboard of the well in the launch car and piped straight up to the aircraft. It's not impossible to transfer the fuel from car to car via flexible hoses, indeed I've did exactly that in the 70s for some test coaches we had at the Railway Tech Centre in Derby.

[MAD]

Keep it coming!!!!!!
Keep it coming!!!!!!

Some fantastic ideas gents 

Yet still no takers to draw this dream 

M.A.D

[tinlail]

I know that logistic was a big issue but i had no idea it was this big of a issue. This is what I found out while trying to get more information of the types of airfield equipment.

from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/5-430-00-2/Ch11.htm if sq ft can be converted in to ISO containers that is a 100 to nearly 200 boxes need for what I seems to be a two week operating period. Fuel seems to be as bad though all I found was a suggestion of 15000 bbl for some undefined type of military airbase.

How sneaky is a 200 car train?

[rickshaw]

You would not want a train that long.   First up, it'd have to be longer - you have what 12 aircraft, plus personnel to support.  So you need wagons for them.  You need workshops for repairs.  You need stores for replacement of faulty line items.  Then, you'd need to defend all that.  Then you add your logistics needs for operational requirement and the need to defend that as well.    So, no, you wouldn't be looking at one train 200 wagons long, you're now looking at one train ~300 wagons long.  Anyway, you wouldn't want to store all your eggs in one basket so you'd break it down, into multiples, preferrably self-contained.   However, this assumes that you have a widely branched and divergent rail system.  Something Oz definitly lacks.    Otherwise all your enemy has to do is cut your rails, frequently and you're stranded.

[MAD]

Weaver - Easiest way to put self-defence missiles in a train is vertical launch. Nothing to see, just some hatches on the roof of a freight car.... evil

Yes that makes sense!!  The only reason I thought ADAT was due to it true dual role SAM/ATGM capability! Then again if it has to fend off MBT, we are in trouble.....................Ok some self-defence SAM's (I'm thinking something like a VL variant of the Swedish BAMSE RBS-23 missile (Range 15km, Ceiling 15km) or something smaller, lighter and cheaper (but much shorter ranged!) German 'Ozelot' ASRAD Air defence system. and some duel purpose AAA (say 25-30mm? - in a retractable housing arrangement)

Wow a train 200 to 300 wagons long  

Rickshaw Something Oz definitly lacks. Otherwise all your enemy has to do is cut your rails, frequently and you're stranded.

Dam them enemy to hell 

M.A.D