BAe/Boeing GR.5 / AV-8B wings-span 'What If' question????

[Weaver]

The support requirements are what severely curtailed dispersed ops for the Harrier operators and killed off the idea for a lot of potential export customers. Yes, you can land and take off in a clearing in a forest, but if there are no roads to that clearing, then you're going to need every Chinook in the RAF to ferry in enough supplies to keep up a decent tempo of operations. This means that you need a road near to the clearing, but even using road transport, you've got to marshall all this stuff, park it, have fuel dumps, ammo dumps, inflatable hangars for maintenance, air and ground defence and security, LOTS of people to do all this stuff, food to feed them, tents for them to sleep in etc, etc... and you end up with something that looks a lot like an airbase without a runway, and is about as concealed and mobile.

The RAF liked the idea because they only envisaged using dispersed ops for the initial phase of WWIII in order to avoid the Harriers being destroyed on their airfields, but by the end of week one most of them would have been shot down or pulled back anyway, so the dispersed sites didn't have to be long-term sustainable.

The USMC concept, as used successfully in Gulf War I, is to use the dispersal site as a minimalist forward operating location with just fuel and (some) weapons, with all other support at a semi-permanent base area either further back and/or off-shore on an LPHA. The RN did something similar in the Falklands, establishing a pad with fuel only at San Carlos so that SHAR's could stay on CAP longer (past bingo fuel) then refuel at the pad for the trip back to the carriers.

In the late 1970s, China was interested in buying a variant with the SHAR airframe but ground-attack avionics for dispersed ops in their western deserts, but a combination of hovering dust cloud risk and hot + high take-off limitations put them off the idea.

[MAD]

Yeah some good point made there Weaver 
But as my original idea envisage it being an Australian set up, the operational tempo would not be as great as that of Europe or WWIII 

WeaverIn the late 1970s, China was interested in buying a variant with the SHAR airframe but ground-attack avionics for dispersed ops in their western deserts, but a combination of hovering dust cloud risk and hot + high take-off limitations put them off the idea.

Add to this the fact that the PRC was nowhere near as affluent in fund's, let alone the PLAAF having the lucsury of big ticket items like western aircraft (although saying this, the Harrier GR.3 (which I think the PLAAF was looking at a derivative) was not a a costly airplane, compared to the higher performance state-of-the-art western fighters of the era - let alone now!!

M.A.D   

[rickshaw]

Rickshaw Something Oz definitly lacks. Otherwise all your enemy has to do is cut your rails, frequently and you're stranded.

Dam them enemy to hell 

M.A.D

Inconvenient buggers, aren't they?  Problem when you have a continent with only one railway east-west and another north-south.  Even along the east coast where the lines are largest in number, most hug the coast.  There are no transverse rail lines along the NW coast of course.  Just a few from mines to the coast and ports.  In the 21st century our transport infrastructure is woefully under-developed.    You might be better off putting your Harriers on boats.   That way you can move 'em rapidly roundabout the coasts.  Alternatively, just have an "airstrip on wheels" with everything, packed up to go and when you find out where the threat might be, everybody shoots off down the roads to there and sets up and the Harriers just fly in. 

That way you have the existing transport network for logistics and a system which is set up to sustain operations in the middle of nowhere, which already exists.

[PR19_Kit]

How about transferring the rail-borne idea to one of those road-trains that we see so often in Oz films?

The trailers are about the same size as the car racks we've been discussing, and there's no 'Loading Gauge' as such. Or is there? Never having been in the Outback, or even to Oz, I have no idea of local conditions.

[MAD]

Rickshaw

You might be better off putting your Harriers on boats.   That way you can move 'em rapidly roundabout the coasts.

Hell don't let that get out to the politicians........it might sound to much or be misconstrue as an aircraft carrier. After all the politicians almost wet their pants when someone put the words F-35 and Canberra Class in the same sentence 

PR19_KitHow about transferring the rail-borne idea to one of those road-trains that we see so often in Oz films?

I hear you brother 
That I am also happy to explore!!
But I suppose we should not lose sight that this is 'What If'!
Besides.......I'm all excited about the prospects of our railway-based dispersed air operations profile 
Hey I'm forty, with three billy-lids and been married for twelve years - I need this excitement, anticipation and climax 

M.A.D

[MAD]

Hey PR19_Kit
Do you mean something like this?

[MAD]

But you know if we are to do a roadtrain arrangement. It will have to be based on the Soviet / Russian MAZ series of trucks!!
None of these expensive and technical Western wanta be trucks!!
The MAZ has power, ruggedness and cost effectiveness

Plus if it was going to be done, the Soviets would have already have done it 

But please, lets not get sidetracked   

M.A.D

[rickshaw]

Hey PR19_Kit
Do you mean something like this?

Unusual event.  Most road trains are only one or two semi-trailers plus a single full trailer.   Road laws limit them because the damage they do to the roads.

[MAD]

Hey PR19_Kit
Do you mean something like this?

Unusual event.  Most road trains are only one or two semi-trailers plus a single full trailer.   Road laws limit them because the damage they do to the roads.

Hell road laws
This is Northern Australia we are talking  
We will have Harrier II's, an air defence guard platoon (although they might not want to come out of the air-conditioned compartment  ).........................and if worst comes to worst we have Mad Max
Lets see them stop us for a road ticket

M.A.D  

[MAD]

Some inspiration of what a train can look like and do!! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIgvGpH2smY

M.A.D

[Weaver]

Some inspiration of what a train can look like and do!! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIgvGpH2smY

M.A.D

Shouldn't that video end with a slogan like:

CLUB-K: KEEPING THE WORLD SAFE FROM FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY

[JayBee]

I wonder where they got the idea for mobile cruise missile launchers from?

[rickshaw]

I wonder where they got the idea for mobile cruise missile launchers from?

Must ha' been them nasty English blighters!   

Red Rapier predates any Soviet or American mobile cruise missile systems that I'm aware of.

[coops213]

So would the Harrier land gear down and then maneuver into the cradle, or land directly into the cradle? The latter would require a high degree of precision, but perhaps this Aussie Harrier/flatcar system could have an integrated autoland system? Sensors in both the Harrier and the flatcar could determine the jet's position relative to the optimum landing spot, and automatically move it to there. All the pilot would need to do is pull up next to the flatcar, flip a switch and the jet would land itself right in the cradle.

One other concern I had was FOD. Railway ballast would work wonders inside a jet engine, though I guess this could be mitigated by a large enough landing area.

Chris

[MAD]

Hey Chris (coops213) great to have your thoughts and talents on-board 
I love the idea of an integrated autoland system 
After all the Soviet's had such a system for their Yak-38 Forger's!
Add to this the Harrier II's much more reliable engines = safety - when compared to the Yak-38's, which contributed / mitigated their own integrated autoland system!

As to your concerns about FOD ingestion.
I like the way you think

though I guess this could be mitigated by a large enough landing area.

Once again I thank everyone for their continuing contribution.........................keep it coming 

M.A.D