all my tsr2s (all what if)

[eatthis]

this was my 1st plane and my 3rd ever model japanese recon bird 1/48





my 2nd plane raf version 1/72




4th plane this was my 1st attempt at scratchbuilding its a canadian interceptor with awg9/pheonix combo and a gau8 in the bomb bay! shoulda kept the bears at bay lol 1/48







op granby tsr2 with a vulcan gun in the nose (i took the bombs off the underside today i thought it looked a bit too busy) 1/48





i finished this beast yesterday its approx my 8th model i went a bit mad with it, i did a bit of research it may well have been unviable but i didnt pluck anything out of thin air eg they had and olympus engine running at 68,000 lb thrust in the 60s! iv also added lerx root extensions, different intakes, canards, 2d thrust vectoring the stats are
empty weight of 55,000 lbs (75,000 lb loaded)
thrust 120,000lb! ( real in service gr1 wouldve had 85,000 +)
weapon load 16,000 lb internally and on wing pylons
max speed at altitude mach 3.02 (british record) thats the reason for a the unpainted titanium leading edges everywhere
speed at sea level 1350 mph (smashed the world record set by a modified f104 at 988 mph)
mach 2 supercruise (only the 2nd plane ever to do this along with concorde)



(iv touched the black bits up since then)





next up will be another monster similer to the above but a fighter style cockpit (it will be a fighter/bomber) in current raf service with full air-air and air-ground load
im not very good but im learning with every build and willing to listen to criticism
so what dya reckon?

[ChrisF]

Loving the "test pilot school" one... Lots of imagination !

[Maverick]

Bloody brilliant, the mods on the ETPS are top notch.  About the only note I'd have would be 'too much' ordnance, but that's a personal preference.

Regards,

Mav

[eatthis]

iv removed the belly weapons off both of them for that reason
is there any reason to believ that that a gr1 tsr2 wouldnt have been easily the fastest thing on earth at sea level?
given the fact that the prototype using 50,000 lb thrust max ran away from a lightning which i think was the fastest accelerating plane in the world at that point (certainly faster than the zipper) and that the gr1 wouldve had 85,500 lb thrust add that to the frontal area of a postage stamp and surely it wouldve been utterly untouchable?

[NARSES2]

Really nice collection there 

[Hobbes]

Excellent collection. 

[DamienB]

iv removed the belly weapons off both of them for that reason
is there any reason to believ that that a gr1 tsr2 wouldnt have been easily the fastest thing on earth at sea level?

Top speed at sea level was specified to be 0.9M sustained, supersonic only in bursts - and in the spec revisions near the end of the project BAC never guaranteed the supersonic bit.

given the fact that the prototype using 50,000 lb thrust max ran away from a lightning which i think was the fastest accelerating plane in the world at that point (certainly faster than the zipper) and that the gr1 wouldve had 85,500 lb thrust add that to the frontal area of a postage stamp and surely it wouldve been utterly untouchable?

TSR2 is surrounded by a lot of myth and legend. Don't know where you got your thrust figures from but they're not right; the Lightning anecdote has been blown out of all proportion over the years. What actually happened is that the Lightning chase plane - in dry power only sat at Mach 1 - was briefly left behind when the TSR2 accelerated away (with one reheat plugged in) to Mach 1.12. I'm sure you'll agree a Lightning has no problem managing to get up to a mere Mach 1.12, and won't take long to do so from Mach 1! I really wish I'd had more room in my book to explain this but I was trying not to repeat all the old embellished stories and thought I'd just skim over this one. What I should have done was take it to pieces!

[eatthis]

iv removed the belly weapons off both of them for that reason
is there any reason to believ that that a gr1 tsr2 wouldnt have been easily the fastest thing on earth at sea level?

Top speed at sea level was specified to be 0.9M sustained, supersonic only in bursts - and in the spec revisions near the end of the project BAC never guaranteed the supersonic bit.

given the fact that the prototype using 50,000 lb thrust max ran away from a lightning which i think was the fastest accelerating plane in the world at that point (certainly faster than the zipper) and that the gr1 wouldve had 85,500 lb thrust add that to the frontal area of a postage stamp and surely it wouldve been utterly untouchable?

TSR2 is surrounded by a lot of myth and legend. Don't know where you got your thrust figures from but they're not right; the Lightning anecdote has been blown out of all proportion over the years. What actually happened is that the Lightning chase plane - in dry power only sat at Mach 1 - was briefly left behind when the TSR2 accelerated away (with one reheat plugged in) to Mach 1.12. I'm sure you'll agree a Lightning has no problem managing to get up to a mere Mach 1.12, and won't take long to do so from Mach 1! I really wish I'd had more room in my book to explain this but I was trying not to repeat all the old embellished stories and thought I'd just skim over this one. What I should have done was take it to pieces!

i got the thrust figures from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Olympus i found another site saying the same thing but cant remember what its called
Olympus R28 Mk.360 - 42,733 lbf (190,090 N) wet - development of Mk.320 engine for production use in the TSR-2

the bit abouth it leaving a lightning i submit to your knowledge but its a widely held myth if it is so

[DamienB]

i got the thrust figures from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Olympus i found another site saying the same thing but cant remember what its called
Olympus R28 Mk.360 - 42,733 lbf (190,090 N) wet - development of Mk.320 engine for production use in the TSR-2

Wiki is full of rubbish I'm afraid. There was the Olympus 320X (early development batch TSR2s), then the 320 (later development batch aircraft), then the Olympus 321 (production standard for pre-production and production aircraft). The specification for the engine is quite clear about the maximum output being 30,610lb - and that's ignoring intake losses, air bleed losses etc. so when fitted to an airframe it would never actually manage this figure. As for the "Olympus R28 Mk.360", well it does not appear in the RR Olympus family tree as published in "Olympus - the first forty years" by Alan Baxter/Rolls Royce Heritage Trust and if you google for it, you only find wiki and copies of wiki... it was added to the wiki article by an anonymous poster with no sources quoted. Nuff said I think...

the bit abouth it leaving a lightning i submit to your knowledge but its a widely held myth if it is so

From Roland Beamont's own flight test report for flight 14, this is one line in a report of several pages is the basis of the "outrunning a Lightning" story:

The chase aircraft confirmed passing the jump-up condition, but had fallen behind during the transition and was not able to give a steady state speed check.

My italics - the 'jump-up condition' was the transition from transonic to definitely supersonic flight. Roland Beamont never claimed (in print at least) that the TSR2 really outran the Lightning - and his test report for this flight can be found in his book 'Testing Early Jets' if you want to verify my quote above. This incident was then inaccurately reported in the book TSR2 Phoenix or Folly (where the Lightning pilot supposedly plugs in reheat on both engines at the same time as the TSR2 plugs in one, rather than doing so some moments later), and that I believe is the source for this particular myth.

[McColm]

wow!!
There is an article in Scale Aviation Modeller International May 2011 page 552 that may be of interest to you. 'Canadin Armed Forces CF-109' swing winged licence built TSR.2

[eatthis]

i got the thrust figures from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Olympus i found another site saying the same thing but cant remember what its called
Olympus R28 Mk.360 - 42,733 lbf (190,090 N) wet - development of Mk.320 engine for production use in the TSR-2

Wiki is full of rubbish I'm afraid. There was the Olympus 320X (early development batch TSR2s), then the 320 (later development batch aircraft), then the Olympus 321 (production standard for pre-production and production aircraft). The specification for the engine is quite clear about the maximum output being 30,610lb - and that's ignoring intake losses, air bleed losses etc. so when fitted to an airframe it would never actually manage this figure. As for the "Olympus R28 Mk.360", well it does not appear in the RR Olympus family tree as published in "Olympus - the first forty years" by Alan Baxter/Rolls Royce Heritage Trust and if you google for it, you only find wiki and copies of wiki... it was added to the wiki article by an anonymous poster with no sources quoted. Nuff said I think...

the bit abouth it leaving a lightning i submit to your knowledge but its a widely held myth if it is so

From Roland Beamont's own flight test report for flight 14, this is one line in a report of several pages is the basis of the "outrunning a Lightning" story:

The chase aircraft confirmed passing the jump-up condition, but had fallen behind during the transition and was not able to give a steady state speed check.

My italics - the 'jump-up condition' was the transition from transonic to definitely supersonic flight. Roland Beamont never claimed (in print at least) that the TSR2 really outran the Lightning - and his test report for this flight can be found in his book 'Testing Early Jets' if you want to verify my quote above. This incident was then inaccurately reported in the book TSR2 Phoenix or Folly (where the Lightning pilot supposedly plugs in reheat on both engines at the same time as the TSR2 plugs in one, rather than doing so some moments later), and that I believe is the source for this particular myth.

fair enough 
this is the other site i found though http://rolls-royce-olympus.co.tv/


any more info on the swing wing cf109??

[kitnut617]

Canadian designations go numerically in order and the -109 was the Cosmopolitian, CC-109.  The lead two letters would change as each new designation was assigned, CC, CF, CH or CT. So the CF-109 is purely a 'what-if' and a good one from what I've heard.

[McColm]

Derek Woods' book 'Project Cancelled'  Janes 1986 -has an article about the TSR.2 and a captioned picture of BAC's secret mini-exhibition at Warton in 1964. In plan view is the TSR.2 Development.
This differs from Paul Lucas book 'Lost Tomorrows of an Eagle' SAM Publications 2009, where Paul explains the evaluation of a possible interceptor back in 1963. Had the TSR.2 survived a planned swing-winged version would have flown as early as 1970 and entered service in 1983.
The two books show the discrepancies between each others drawings.

Xtradecals include decals for a 'Canadair CF-109'.

TSR.2 : Phoenix or folly? Frank Barnett-Jones, GMS Enterprise 1994
British Aircraft Corporation TSR.2, Antony Thornnborough, Ad Hoc Publications 2005
British Secret Projects: Jet Bombers since 1949 Tony Buttler, Midland 2003
British Secret Projects: Jet Fighters since 1950 Tony Buttler Midland 2000

[DamienB]

this is the other site i found though http://rolls-royce-olympus.co.tv/
[/quote]

That's a copy of the wiki article, word for word. Lots of sites around like that now.

[GTX]

Loving the "test pilot school" one...

Ditto!