Ballistic missile cruisers

[Weaver]

There were, to my knowledge, at least two post-war schemes to fit Polaris missiles to surface ships.

1. The nuclear cruiser Long Beach was originally slated to have a Regulus cruise missile launcher, which was then scrapped (but not before Revell tooled their kit of it... ) in favour of four Polaris tubes. These were in turn replaced (before construction began) by ASROC and 5" guns, the stategic role having now been totally abandoned in favour of carrier escort duties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Long_Beach_(CGN-9)



2. The Italian WWII cruiser Giusseppe Garibaldi was rebuilt as a missile cruiser (1957 to 1961) with Terrier SAMs and four Polaris tubes aft. Launch testing was actually done on these tubes before the USA decided not to supply the missiles as part of the resolution of the Cuban missile crisis. Italy then pursued a national missile program called Alfa for a while before abandoning it in 1975 (four years after the cruiser had been scrapped).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_cruiser_Giuseppe_Garibaldi_(1936)

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/italy/it_cr_abruzzi.htm

The Italian cruiser was originally intended to be the first of a NATO Polaris cruiser force of 25 vessels:

During its reconstruction program in 1957-1961, the Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi was fitted for launch of four Polaris missiles, with launchers located in the aft part of the ship.
The successful tests held in 1961-1962, induced the United States to study a NATO Multilateral Nuclear Force (MLF), based on 25 international surface vessels from the US, United Kingdom, France, Italy, and West Germany, equipped with 200 Polaris nuclear missiles,[4] enabling European allies to participate in the management of the NATO nuclear deterrent.

The MLF plan, as well as the Italian Polaris Program, were abandoned, both for political reasons (in consequence of the Cuban Missile Crisis) and the initial operational availability of the first SSBN George Washington, which demonstrated the possibility to launch effectively SLBMs, solution preferred to surface-launched missiles.

Italy developed a domestic new version of the missile, the SLBM designated Alfa.[5] The program was cancelled in the 1975 after Italy signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UGM-27_Polaris

More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilateral_Force

Whatever the military/political questions one could raise about such schemes, they HAVE to be a fertile ground for whiffery:

What would the British, French and German ships have looked like? Re-vamped WWII vessels? New ships? Nuclear powered or conventional?

What if the Soviets had followed this line of thinking?

What if other nations had gone down this route: say escaping German scientists give a South American country missile technology and go on to develop nuclear warheads for them, but the country lacks submarine building expertise and so chooses to mount them on thir ex-western cruisers?

[Maverick]

I suspect you wouldn't necessarily need a warship either.  One would surmise that a container type vessel, with the appropriate modifications would make a suitable platform.  They are, after all, vast things with lots of useable space.

Regards,

Mav

[seadude]

Weren't there also plans to possibly put Regulus, Polaris, or some other large missiles on the IOWA class battleships?

[Thorvic]

Well there is the French battleship Jean Bart available from Trumpeter in her 1955 fit so possible to do a French version with thier own SLBM. Due out any time now is the Trumpeter Ilalian Battleship Roma, now although she was the one sunk by the German glide bombs, she could be used as a basis for the Littorio or Vittorio Veneto modernised (these two ships are due out later in the year, but Roma had a revised bow for better seakeeping and this would probably have been retofitted later.

A Matchbox tiger could be adapted by loosing the hanger and flight deck withe space of the former aft turret to mount the Missile silos.

[RLBH]

What would the British, French and German ships have looked like? Re-vamped WWII vessels? New ships? Nuclear powered or conventional?

An awful lot like standard merchant liners - the idea was that the MLF ships were to hide in the shipping lanes so that the Soviets would have to sink every merchant ship to be sure they'd got all the Polaris missiles. Of course, given that the Soviets planned on trying that anyway, it doesn't seem like such a good idea in retrospect. Incidentally, one of the ideas was to have multi-national crews on these ships, and the command arrangements were actually tried out on a USN destroyer with crew from several NATO nations.

There's a couple of files about the MLF here, quite close to the bottom - search the page for 'MLF' or 'Polaris' if you don't want to scroll through.

Weren't there also plans to possibly put Regulus, Polaris, or some other large missiles on the IOWA class battleships?

There were plans to do all sorts of odd things with the Iowa class. Most of them seemed to amount to 'we have four big fast ships, what can we do with them?'

[Weaver]

What would the British, French and German ships have looked like? Re-vamped WWII vessels? New ships? Nuclear powered or conventional?

An awful lot like standard merchant liners - the idea was that the MLF ships were to hide in the shipping lanes so that the Soviets would have to sink every merchant ship to be sure they'd got all the Polaris missiles. Of course, given that the Soviets planned on trying that anyway, it doesn't seem like such a good idea in retrospect. Incidentally, one of the ideas was to have multi-national crews on these ships, and the command arrangements were actually tried out on a USN destroyer with crew from several NATO nations.

There's a couple of files about the MLF here, quite close to the bottom - search the page for 'MLF' or 'Polaris' if you don't want to scroll through.

Wow - those are a brilliant find - cheers! 

[Thorvic]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/Thorvic/Project%20Cancelled%202011/gg001.jpg

This might be of interest

[rallymodeller]

Was the Kirov ever planned for a ballistic missile fit? The Soviets armed her (him?) with just about every other weapon they could muster up...

[Jschmus]

I don't have the book in front of me, just a preview through Google Books, but Norman Friedman's U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History gives some text coverage to a proposal to fit out the Iowa class battleships as missile carriers.  The quoted section yields the following:

Early in 1959 this design was revised, with sixteen Polaris ballistic missiles added in tubes abaft the second funnel.  It was estimated that such a conversion would take two and a half years (that is, July 1960 through January 1963) and would cost $115 million, $35 million of which would be attributable to Polaris.  It appears that there was also an alternative with six 5in/38 and Regulus, without Tartar, priced at $82 million in October 1958.

The preview doesn't include the preceding page, but at the time, they were talking about a BBG, as depicted by JoeP in the Ships forum:

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,30971.0.html

There were a variety of proposals which included all of the missiles on the Navy drawing boards at that time: Regulus, Talos, Tartar, Terrier, et al, plus various combinations of guns.  The crux of the proposals was to see how quickly the Polaris missile could be made operational with the Navy.  By the early 60s, the preference was for something much less expensive, like converting a seaplane tender.

[Joe C-P]

The USN also launched a V-2 off of USS Midway, and there were early plans to convert Essexes into rocket-launching ships, removing a significant part of the after flight deck to make room for the equipment and gantry.

Arming naval vessels versus merchants depends on whether you plan for deterrence or stealth.
Of course, with merchants all the Soviets need to do is find a crewman to bribe. The naval vessels also have the advantage of being able to defend themselves.

[PR19_Kit]

I recall from a book about the rocket that at least one of the USN's Viking rockets was launched from the USS Norton Sound. There's a piccie in the book showing it standing on the launcher on the fantail of the ship, but needless to say I can't find the darn book now. 

[Weaver]

How about this:

The USN donates some of it's surplus WWII cruisers to a new NATO CGB force, which allows nations without suitable ships for conversion (like Germany - all gone) to make a contribution by paying for the re-fits and operating them. Alternatively/additionally, a new-build, optionally-nuclear-powered CGB CGBN is designed, using hardware from various NATO countries, for the new force. It could have Mk-10s with Terrier/ASROC (and the Polaris, of course) from the USA, Seacats from the UK, 3" guns from Italy, Dutch radars etc...

Got an image of a double-ended Vittorio Veneto in my head, with the Polaris in the middle....

EDIT: or alternatively, and somewhat more modellably, a cut-down Long Beach. Going to do a profile of that....

[Weaver]

Here we go, a NATO Polaris cruiser based on the technology of the USS Long Beach:



The hull is shortened, she only has one Mk.10 launcher forward and the Talos is replaced by another Mk.10 aft. Both Mk.10s have three magazine rings for a total capacity of 120 missiles, and can fire ASROC as well as Terrier. There's a British twin 3" Mk.6 forward and twin Seacats on the rear quarters for close-in defence. The eight Polaris are housed in a VERY heavily armoured compartment in the centre with double sides and bottom.

I know this isn't a "perfect" design with hindsight, but it represents the thinking of the time. In the early 1960s, Seacat was just about the only choice for point defence: Sea Sparrow et al didn't come along until the late 1960s.

[rickshaw]

Interesting.   I think you need to add a crane of some sort for loading/unloading the Polaris tubes.   IIRC Polaris was a fairly maintenance intensive missile, needing frequent servicing which could only be performed "out of the tube".

[Thorvic]

Nah they would just use a Support ship like the Submarine & Destroyer tenders to maintain the missiles.

Diorama with a modified Long Beach next to a Tender ?