Harrier and Sea Harrier

[Davey B]

Did anyone see the picture on page 54 of this month's Ariforces Monthly? It shows an RAF Harrier GR.7 taxying at its (secret) base in Kuwait, carrying 2 Sidewinders, 2 retarded 1,000 pounders and a pair of Aden pods under the fuselage. So, what's happened? Have the MoD finally decided that putting guns on fighters is the way to go after all, and dug the old 30-mm Aden's out of storage? Does this affect the decision to turn the Typhoon into a 21st century Phantom? (not F-4E/F of course) Does this mean that any bog-standard Harrier kit with cannon pods is now not a W/IF? Or have the RAF just run out of lift improvement strakes? Either way, let's send our pilots over to the USS Bataan and pinch a few dozen AV-8B+ when the Marines aren't looking. Perfect interim SHAR replacement.

And there was a feature on the Tornado F.3 (or EF.3) in the SEAD role with ALARM in there, too.

[nev]

I think the GR7 was meant to have a different cannon, but they never got round to qualifying it...A bit like the AV-8B+, with its APG-65 radar, to allow it to carry AMRAAM, then not bothering to qualify it to carry AMRAAM...don't know if the USMC have rectified that yet.

[Davey B]

I'm not sure if the GR.7's carrying live pods or not, as it's not a very good angle (nearly head-on) and the barrel caps are in place. As far as I can see, it looks just the same as the SHAR's 30 mm pod. I saw a Channel 4 documentary on DERA a few years back, when they were testing the Aden 25. The pods for that were much bigger, having a massive bulge about halfway along the bottom. I don't think the RAF are using empty pods, as up to now the Harriers have used the big Yankee-type strakes. Maybe the old Aden mk.4's are back. Or maybe not, who knows?
   Oh yeah, in that same doc. the boffins at DERA said that they could design and build an effective antipersonnel laser rifle with existing technology. The downside? It'd need a power source the size of a Mini Cooper to power it...

[harrier]

Thorvic tells me TsrJoe wanted GAs of the Big Wing Harrier.

Attached to this message is one of the final version of the so called GR.5(K) - model photo and data in Tony Buttler's Bombers book which you all must have by now.

Next message will have another pic...!

Mike

[harrier]

..other pic is of GR.3 with Big Wing added. No wingtip missiles, and some other differences. Not sure if final mod GR.3 would have this or same wing as GR.5(K), but either way should be easier to model.

Mike

[overscan]

A small mention is made by Doug Richardson in "West's Modern Fighters" of BAe offering an AEW Sea Harrier with conformal antennas in extended wings just after the Falklands.

Anyone know any more? Sounds pretty far-fetched to me!

[TsrJoe]

iv a Hawker project drg which mentions AEW (id always assumed it just to be a coincidental designator?) ill see if i can find it in the files and get it posted up either way...

cheers joe

[Captain Canada]

Never heard of it, but thanks for the idea !

I could see a two-holed SlingSHAR with underwing SLAR pods for keeping an eye on things.....

 

[Gary]

A small mention is made by Doug Richardson in "West's Modern Fighters" of BAe offering an AEW Sea Harrier with conformal antennas in extended wings just after the Falklands.

Anyone know any more? Sounds pretty far-fetched to me!

The USN Viking ASW platform was offered the same thing, a phased array built into the wing skin. There was another version offered where a cut out diamond shapped set of "wings" that extended from the nost to the tips and then back to the tail. again phased array.

Now if ya wants a simple dish fer ta sport on the top or bottem of yer bird, Saint Alvis has the perfect and easy solution. Go to your local dollar store and snag a tiny magnifying glass, the cheapo type with the plastic lense. Perfect shape, easy to drill a hole, glue sticks and most important of all, price and variety.

[Hatchet]

I remembered, that I saw in some modelling magasine some years ago (ok, many years ago), a Harrier T.4 with a monster radome under the nose. Supposedly it was being considered by the RN. Looked kinda like the radomes on the cruise missile Bears (H?). I have no idea what magazine it was, but it was in english, so I would at least have been 10 years old (1985).

[elmayerle]

A small mention is made by Doug Richardson in "West's Modern Fighters" of BAe offering an AEW Sea Harrier with conformal antennas in extended wings just after the Falklands.

Anyone know any more? Sounds pretty far-fetched to me!

It would take all new wings and likely work best on a two-seater, but the general concept is a scaling up of some bits of ECM kit currently used and combined with a peculiarly-shaped set of AESA antennae.  *G* You'd most definitely have composite leading edges that wouldn't ice up, way too much wattage behind them.

[Geoff_B]

Don't forget the Seaking AEW the Kamov Ka-31 and the EH101 have all been modified to act as helicopter based AEW aircraft. Not ideal but a useful compromise. The V-22 was proposed to use a tiangular wedge shaped antenae mounted above the wing pivot in a similar fashion to the AEW Viking (The S-3 was originally envisioned as a Tracker replacement, including COD and AEW roles operationg from the smaller US carrier incapable of supporting a suitable number of the larger USN aircraft like Hawkeye).

As for the Harrier AEW, Harrier aka Mike Pryce would be a good one to ask, i know there is an AEW P1216 drawing, that has a modified Blue Vixen radar, tandem seats and extended wings. I guess the idea is to use the capabilities of fighter radar to watch a specific area rather than the all round coverage provided by AEW aircraft with the full all aspect radar.

[harrier]

Geoff is right that there was a brief look at an AEW P.1216 - side looking radar in the booms and swept outer wings replaced with long, straight ones for more loiter from what I recall.

As for an AEW SHAR, I have not seen or heard of one, although I did once see a variant of the FRS.2 with a conformal ventral fuel tank in place of the gunpods  (170 gallons - strange how I can remember that but not where I saw it!!!), just like the Lightning F.6. Perhaps a radar (mod Blue Kestrel?) could have gone in that. Also, the 'Harrier III' proposals featured wing booms like the P.1216, so I guess a similar SLAR could have been used.  

No doubt there is a GA somewhere of something like these - the Kingston projects people drew most things that can be thought of!

Mike

[Spellbinder99]

Yes, I remember your post John, and I think it clicked when I saw how regular the FR wings were. Even the weird tail arrangement works in the context of keeping the verticals clear of a pylon mounted rotodomes wake.

Cheers

Tony

[P1127]

As for an AEW SHAR, I have not seen or heard of one, although I did once see a variant of the FRS.2 with a conformal ventral fuel tank in place of the gunpods  (170 gallons - strange how I can remember that but not where I saw it!!!), just like the Lightning F.6. Perhaps a radar (mod Blue Kestrel?) could have gone in that. Also, the 'Harrier III' proposals featured wing booms like the P.1216, so I guess a similar SLAR could have been used.  

There is mention in the WAPJ issue on the SHAR (41) of a Flight International report of a Harrier AEW variant being offered by BAE instead of the Sea King AEW7.

They mention wingtip mounted 'Sidetrack' radar (based on Siemens-Plessey MESAR), and that the idea may have been wind tunnel tested in 1997

Type of Harrier is not mentioned, but would imagine either SHAR2 or GR7 (T-birds being too big for the Carrier lifts) and surely only as a relay station?