Harrier and Sea Harrier

[Zen]

I think I have an article that mentions that somewhere. If memory serves the idea was two wingtip mounted pods each holding a modified MESAR set ( single plate Sampson) with some equipment in pods on the pylons.
The plane would use a high capacity datalink to send the return signal down to a the processing system on a ship where it would be processed into the picture and that this could be based on any large vessel like CVF or a Type 45 etc.....
The system was said to be applicable to Shar, the GR.7 or whatever won the JSF contest.

While I'm at it I've read about a Lightning F.7 (in a few websites) thas was in effect a total revsion of the plane (a new plane in all things but the name really). Yet the project number assigned to this was said to the P.8.

Now I now that the P.8 was nothing of the kind described as the F.7 so where does this come from?
Has someone been making up proky pies or just misread their history and confused BAC swign wing designs with a revsion of the Lightning?

[Geoff_B]

Harrier developments

Love the Raspberry Ripple T-2 Harrier but the technology bodes well for the F-35B VTOL carrier ops  

Geoff B B)  

[Jschmus]

I've been fiddling around with the simpler stuff in my collection, looking for something quick and dirty for the One-Week build.  I got this idea this afternoon while I was getting ready for work.

The US Navy operated the A-4 Skyhawk from various carriers from the late 1950s to the early 1970s.  They began to phase them out from the larger CV/CVA carriers in the late 60s, but continued to operate from the smaller Essex carriers until they were mothballed in the early 70s.  This is probably a little silly, and may not have much basis in fact, but here goes.

For whatever reason, the Navy pushes through the budget the funds necessary to refit and continue operations from the Essex-class carriers.  Maybe a couple of the larger Nimitz-class ships are cancelled or something.  The Skyhawks have been retired, but the Navy still needs a light attack aircraft for operations from these smaller carriers.  I realize that the Harrier's landing gear are probably too fragile for conventional arrested landings, but perhaps they operated in STOVL fashion?  The AV-8 could have made a maximum load takeoff with the assistance of a catapult, right?

This idea stems from me pulling out the AMT/Ertl AV-8A kit and wondering what else I could do with it.  I started out thinking of doing the Harrier as a fast-FAC aircraft, with targeting rockets and limited defensive armament.  Then I found decals for VA-45, an A-4E unit that operated off USS Intrepid until 1973.  I think a Harrier in 1970s-style grey over white would look pretty cool.  Any thoughts?

[dragon]

Well, technically the US MARINES are part of the US NAVY (even though they hate to admit it).  Since the USMC does operate their AV-8Bs from a US NAVY ship, it stands to reason that they had to flight test this beast at a Navy Facility.  So therefore, maybe someone in the Navy brass thought outside of the box and then your scenario becomes more plausible.   What are the equivalent US ordnance for the RN ordnance on their Harriers for that time period?  That might be a way to go.  

[Jschmus]

I looked at the old Mike Spick book on the Harrier this afternoon, and there's a diagram of the Harrier from head-on, with appropriate stores arranged underneath the pylons.  Marine Harriers carried the Aden 30mm cannon pods under the fuselage (they didn't want them, because nothing else used that ammo), and could carry 500-lb and 1000-lb bombs (iron or LGB) on the inners, or fuel tanks, or TERs with clusters.  Alternately, the inner or outer pylons could carry LAU-10 or LAU-68 rocket pods, and the outer pylons were wired for Sidewinders.  The illustration also indicated the inner pylons could carry Harpoon or other AGMs.

[elmayerle]

Marine AV-8As have operated successfully from carriers, so this wouldn't be too much of a stress.  In 1976, VMA-231 operated from the FDR while on exercises in the Med.  I can see the Navy buying more Harriers to replace Skyhawks if they had the small carriers that needed 'em (perhaps a major F-8 upgrade/rebuild program, too?).

[Geoff_B]

Well the Spanish Navy operated AV-8A(S) Matadors from the old CVL Dedalo (WWII light US Carrier based upon a cruiser hull with wooden flight deck) and these were only replaced in the late 80's by the new STVOL carrier Principe Des Austres and AV-8B's.

Now Principe Des Autres is actual and adaptation on the USN design for a light VTOL escort carrier (SCS - Sea Control Ship) for the 1970's for operating ASW Helo's and VTOL aircraft  for use as Convoy Escorts freeing up the Carrier battle groups for offensive operations.

The USN were developing a new generation of STVOL aircraft for these new carriers including the XFV-12 & a stubbier VTOL ASW/Lift aircraft similiar in looks to a shrunken Viking.

Now you could have the AV-8A as an interim aircraft in the USN to develop VTOL operations from these carriers until the new designs come into service, initially from WWII stock carriers or possibly a LHA of the Guam class re-dedicated for USN use until the S.C.S. come into service.

On the USN Harrier concepts, in British Secret Projects, the original AV-16 propossed in 1974 (Pre AV-8B) had a Harrier II style fuselage with the bigger wing and newer wider Pegasus coupled to the Sea Harrier type nose. Artwork shows a USN example similar the the Royal Navy version with the radar fitted, where as the USMC & RAF have blunter non radar nose cones for Strike role.
AV-16 is a fairly simple mod mating a Italeri(ex Esci) SHAR fwd fuselage to an Italeri(testors) AV-8B(GR5/7) fuselage, using the original Harrier intakes and the SHAR tail with RWR (for the UK versions at least).

Cheers

Geoff B B)  

[rallymodeller]

YOu know, instead of the USN going for AV-8A's and thereby stepping on some Marine toes, why not they go for Sea Harrier FRS-1's? I can see the USN adding Sea Harriers to  DDG's...and adding the Skyhook refuelling system. Now THAT would be a surprise to a Badger snooping on fleet exercises!

[Geoff_B]

YOu know, instead of the USN going for AV-8A's and thereby stepping on some Marine toes, why not they go for Sea Harrier FRS-1's? I can see the USN adding Sea Harriers to  DDG's...and adding the Skyhook refuelling system. Now THAT would be a surprise to a Badger snooping on fleet exercises!

The last of the Spruance class destroyers was supposed to get a much larger hanger and the flight deck extended to stern. This would then be similar to the JMSDF Haruna class, but as well as ASW helos it could also have carried other helo types or even Harriers  .

As it happened the revision was cancelled anf the ship completed as per standard.

Geoff B B)  

[P1127]

Have a look at Newletters 6 and 11 for more madness/inspiration!

http://harrier.hyperlinx.cz/sig_newsletter.htm

[Scooterman]

The worst part is now in my head I'm trying to figure out how a Huey Cobra and a Harrier can be combined...probably a good thing I don't have either of them sitting around.

Howsabout a Harrier and a Apache?

http://harrier.hyperlinx.cz/gallery/mod7.htm

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Who was asking about an image of the Harrier with a nuclear weapon strapped to it?  I found an image on Brian Burnell's Guide to British Nuclear Weapon Projects page (Thank you Brian!) http://www.nuclear-weapons.info/vw.htm
Here is a link to the image and here is the image:

[Martin H]

that looks like a bog standard thousand pounder to me, but i could be wrong

[Joe C-P]

The Reagan administration considered recommissioning USS Intrepid, and one proposal was as a "Marine" carrier, with a deck of USMC A-4s plus a few USN helos for ASW. I can see the Marines deciding to fill out the deck with some AV-8As and later Bs. While the proposal suggested that the carrier would operate only in areas of low risk of enemy aircraft attack, it would have been preferable to include a few fighters, so maybe the USN purchases or leases 6-8 Sea Harriers for a CAP.

JoeP

[dy031101]

The Reagan administration considered recommissioning USS Intrepid, and one proposal was as a "Marine" carrier, with a deck of USMC A-4s plus a few USN helos for ASW. I can see the Marines deciding to fill out the deck with some AV-8As and later Bs. While the proposal suggested that the carrier would operate only in areas of low risk of enemy aircraft attack, it would have been preferable to include a few fighters, so maybe the USN purchases or leases 6-8 Sea Harriers for a CAP.

Since the Blue Fox radar has its own weaknesses, perhaps USN could re-engineer its own Sea Harrier by replacing the British radar with one of American origin and a TV Camera Set tab on top of the nose?

I was going to say APG-65, but by then they might as well work from AV-8B...... would the shorter wingspan of 1st Gen. Harrier allow more of these re-engineered Sea Harriers to be carried?