Harrier and Sea Harrier

[kitnut617]

I could have sworn I posted earlier, but IIRC, the 1/72 Airfix Harrier II kits (there were three boxing's I think all with the same sprue, a GR.5, GR.7 & AV-8B) had a gun arrangement similar to the AV-8C.  I don't think it was the GAU-12 pod, or was possibly an innaccurate representation.  I might be mistaken as I gave the part away some time ago.

I've got these two boxings of the GR.7 Simon (top pic) and these are the pods, what are we looking at ? Maybe using the outside parts of the GAU-12 pod on the RAF type (can't remember what's in them, Aden 25mm ?) ?

[Mossie]

The three parts on the right, those are the parts that belong to the AV-8B.  They appear to show GAU-12's, just not particularly well detailed.  The four parts on the left are 25mm ADEN used on the GR.5 & GR.7 (early Harriers used 30mm ADENS).

Looking at these two pics, the strakes on the AV-8C seem to be very similar in size & shape to the AV-8B, they just follow the contours of the ADEN instead.  There are some detail differences, the AV-8C has what seems like a strengthener towards the front.  They're mounted differently too, the AV-8B's strake is just a bent strip, while there seems to have a seperate mounting bolting it to the gun.  Shouldn't make much difference in 1/72.

AV-8B


AV-8C

[kitnut617]

On my STOVL Canberra I was going to use the GAU-12 pod but I've changed my mind after realizing that the GR.7 used the 25mm Aden.  I had wanted the strake feature on the GAU-12 but I think I'll scratch build something now to fit the Aden pods instead

[GeorgeC]

The 25mm ADEN never progressed beyond the development stage.  GR5/7/9 aircraft originally carried 'dummy' pods and, later, strakes on the intended gun points, but have had to rely on high-velocity CVR7 rocket pods in Afghanistan etc for 'point' engagements. 

[kitnut617]

Now you've screwed it up George    So the GR.5/7/9's don't have a gun ?    Back to plan 'A' GAU-12 it will be   Of course I could stick with the 30mm Aden, Hmmm! Plan 'C'

[elmayerle]

I believe, besides the minor antenna differences, that the Alpha & Charlie model AV-8s were identical in shape.

In general, yes, since the Charlies were reworked and upgraded Alphas.  The biggest difference was the LIDS and strakes on the Charlie.  The strakes especially are what I'm trying to get good details on.

[Mossie]

Now you've screwed it up George      So the GR.5/7/9's don't have a gun ?     Back to plan 'A' GAU-12 it will be  Of course I could stick with the 30mm Aden, Hmmm! Plan 'C'

Yeah, there were big problems with the guns, I vaguely remember hearing that the pods were then used to house electronic gubbins, I don't know what was in them.  You mostly see Harriers without them these days, just the strakes in place.

You rarely see AV-8B's with the GAU-12's either, were there similar problems?  I would imagine that the RAF would have just fitted these if it was purely the 25mm ADEN that had problems, or reverted back to the 30mm.  Podded guns are notorious for being difficult to aim in general.

[kitnut617]

Now you've screwed it up George      So the GR.5/7/9's don't have a gun ?     Back to plan 'A' GAU-12 it will be  Of course I could stick with the 30mm Aden, Hmmm! Plan 'C'

Yeah, there were big problems with the guns, I vaguely remember hearing that the pods were then used to house electronic gubbins, I don't know what was in them.  You mostly see Harriers without them these days, just the strakes in place.

You rarely see AV-8B's with the GAU-12's either, were there similar problems?  I would imagine that the RAF would have just fitted these if it was purely the 25mm ADEN that had problems, or reverted back to the 30mm.  Podded guns are notorious for being difficult to aim in general.

D'oh!     Plan 'D' relocate the gun pack in the bomb bay and then use the big Harrier strakes on top of them  (OK, off topic finished sorry guys, I got carried away)

[Scooterman]

The USMC does use the GAU-12 often and I've never heard that it or the original ADEN setup have any issues with accuracy.  The GAU system does however weigh more than the strakes so unless the mission requires a gun, the Corps tend not to pack it.  Remember, any weight savings on a Harrier is much appreciated!  Especially in hot and high areas like the 'stan.

As for the 25mm debacle.  The RAF didn't like the GAU system because it didn't spool up fast enough for their stricter air to air rules of engagement and it also took away the centerline pylon.  (At least you can't hang a bomb there)  So somebody came up with the 25mm idea.  There has been plenty said about that cock-up so I won't go there, but the 'gun' pods that you see on GR.7/7A/9/9As are actually empty.  No fancy ECM stuff, no extra black boxes or anything of the sort.  Harriers need to have some sort of fairing on their bellies to help with the aeros and the empty gunpods are used because there are not enough of the strakes in inventory to cover all airframes.

[Weaver]

The biggest mystery to me is why they didn't pod the 27mm Mauser for the GR.5, since they were already buying something like 800 of them for the Tornado force. Granted the 25mm Aden fired NATO standard ammo, but it wasn't "RAF standard" and the Tornado programme made the 27mm pretty ubiquitous anyway. Retofitting the 27mm pods onto the SHAR wouldn't have hurt either, since it has a much higher muzzle velocity than the ADEN, thus making it a better air-to-air weapon.

[elmayerle]

The biggest mystery to me is why they didn't pod the 27mm Mauser for the GR.5, since they were already buying something like 800 of them for the Tornado force. Granted the 25mm Aden fired NATO standard ammo, but it wasn't "RAF standard" and the Tornado programme made the 27mm pretty ubiquitous anyway. Retofitting tmm he 27mm pods onto the SHAR wouldn't have hurt either, since it has a much higher muzzle velocity than the ADEN, thus making it a better air-to-air weapon.

But *that* would be logical and, all too often, defense procurement is anything but that.  If I was going to whif, say, a Harrier GR.3B (GR.3A with LIDS and straked gunpods, among other things), I'd also replace the 30mm DEN cannons with the 27mm cannons as used on the Tornado and Eurofighter.  Same approach for a Sea Harrier FRS.1A or an alternate FA.2 (though I think I'd go with FG.2).

[GTX]

This may be heresy, but what about a non-Pegasus Harrier?  Maybe replace the Pegasus with say 2× Rolls-Royce RB162-81 F 08 lift turbojets like the VAK 191 and maybe a straightforward turbojet or fan out the back...

Regards,

Greg

[Weaver]

Or for that matter, how about a Forger-ish solution: two low-bypass engines side-by-side feeding the hot nozzles only, and two lift engines between them feeding centreline nozzles? Modify the intakes to have a much smaller, circular opening with the "arms" of the original D-shape faired into the body.....

[Mossie]

Or go the route of complete damnation & make it entirely conventional....

[dy031101]

I've been thinking...... since the Sea Harrier is supposed to be meant for air defense roles, would a TV camera like the one used by the F-14 be useful for the FA.2?

Would it be economically feasible though?  Is the set an expensive piece of gear?