Harrier and Sea Harrier

[Caveman]

Just spotted this over on secretprojects.

A nose which looks like it has come from a vigi or a TSR2 and 'back to back' pegasus' (pegasi?) engines, with 6 nozzles, 4 cold and 2 common hot. Doesnt seem to be the most elegant solution to me... what if you loose an engine? (though i guess the results are less absolute than if you loose an engine in a harrier...)

[Hobbes]

I'm looking for the colors of this paint scheme:



Generally the Shar FRS.1 was painted EDSG over white, but these look blue, not grey to me.

[pyro-manic]

'Tis EDSG/Anti-flash White as far as I know. It does look very blue sometimes. Also notable on Phantoms, Sea Vixens etc. in the same scheme. I suspect it has to do with the light at the time and the amount of wear to the paint.

[NARSES2]

I agree with Pyro that's it's EDSG but I've often thought it looked blue as well Harro. Same as the Phantoms, Scimitars and Buccaneers

[Gondor]

A question about Harrier trainers seeing that Sword recently released their two kits of various versions. Is it only the RAF T$ with the Laser nose that has the extra extension to the tail ?

I am suspecting that it is to counteract the Laser nose at the front end. I have yet to find any write up saying that this is the case though.

Gondor

[PR19_Kit]

Is that the extra extension over the single seaters or another extra extension on the extra extension that's already there on the two seaters?  

Even the laser-less nosed Harrier two seaters have a much longer tail and a taller fin too.

[kerick]

On Prime Portal's site it has pics of a T4 and a T10. The T4 with laser nose has the trainer extended tail plus an ECM extension to that. The T10 has a regular tail tha same as a single seater. They both have the same style nose. I think the extension was the Harrier I answer to balancing the two seat cockpit as opposed to the laser nose. Harrier I single seaters all have the short tail whether laser nose or not. I'm not sure if it was a weight balancing issue or extending the tail to get more torque for turning the two seater at low speed. Squadron/Signal Harrier in Action by Don Lin shows the T2, T2a and T4 with the extended tail, with and without the laser nose. The TAV-8 for the US Marines also had the extended tail. Harrier IIs all seem to have the same tail whether two or single seat. The taller tail on the T2 and T4 helped offset the larger side area of the two seater. Hope this helps.

[rickshaw]

My understanding as to the extended tail on the Trainer Harriers was to provide an extension for the "puffer" control jets, which was found necessary because of the increased side area of the two seater noses.  Same reason why the fin was higher.  They needed the extra distance from the CoG to create more swinging movement.   

[Gondor]

Is that the extra extension over the single seaters or another extra extension on the extra extension that's already there on the two seaters?  

Even the laser-less nosed Harrier two seaters have a much longer tail and a taller fin too.

Its the Extra Extra extension. If you have a look at G-VTOL and then this T2 you will see the difference that this T4 with the extension to the normal trainer differences.

Gondor

[Thorvic]

I'm looking for the colors of this paint scheme:



Generally the Shar FRS.1 was painted EDSG over white, but these look blue, not grey to me.

Hi Harro

Yeap its EDSG, i would go with the Xtracrylix version of the paint as it does have a bluer tint than some others as they tend to cover the greyer US colour first and try and pass it off a a BS colour match. The 899 disbandment aircraft was actually painted in roundel blue as the FAA had sold off its remaining EDSG paint stocks (probably to the FAA musemum at Yeovilton ! )

[PR19_Kit]

Its the Extra Extra extension. If you have a look at G-VTOL and then this T2 you will see the difference that this T4 with the extension to the normal trainer differences.

OK, gotcha.

G-VTOL was all-over non-standard anyway, just see how much taller the fin is than in service 2 seaters, and there was an even TALLER version at one stage.

That extra extra tail extension seemed to appear later on in the 2 seater's lives, with or without the laser nose IIRC. It may have had some ECM connection but I can't find my Harrier library just now. 

[Hobbes]

Yeap its EDSG, i would go with the Xtracrylix version of the paint as it does have a bluer tint than some others as they tend to cover the greyer US colour first and try and pass it off a a BS colour match. The 899 disbandment aircraft was actually painted in roundel blue as the FAA had sold off its remaining EDSG paint stocks (probably to the FAA musemum at Yeovilton ! )

Ah yes, I can see the difference. I've been using Humbrol EDSG which is, well, grey. I'll try and find the Xtracrylix (or Xtracolor? I still prefer enamels).

[Thorvic]

Yeap the Xtracolour is also the same (except a lot longer drying time !), another to consider is the White Ensign Models range which are colour matched and created by the same guy who did the Xtracolour range.

https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/c/RAFFleet+Air+Arm/128/3/

[NARSES2]

White Ensign are very good and drying time is reasonable. About the same as Humbrol

[PR19_Kit]

That extra extra tail extension seemed to appear later on in the 2 seater's lives, with or without the laser nose IIRC. It may have had some ECM connection but I can't find my Harrier library just now.  

OK, after having found my Harrier library I've sussed out the purpose of the extra extra tail extension on the early RAF and RN two seaters.

It's notable that the FAA's T4Ns have the extra extra tail extenion as do the Indian Navy's T60 and neither of these marks ever carried the laser nose. Neither the RAF's early T2s, nor the USMC's TAV-8As have the extra extra extension whereas the RAF's later T4s could carry the extra extra extension but sometimes didn't. The T4s that were assigned for ab initio VSTOL training didn't have laser noses but later in their life they DID have the extra extra extension, so all versions are possible.

The purpose of the extra extra extension seems to be aligned with the RWR fit used on the later GR3s and T4s. The later GR3s had the forward looking RWR aerial at the top of the fin, but there's also a small extension to the rear puffer jet aft of the rudder. When the T4s, originally fitted with the very tall fin extension, were retro-fitted with the GR3 style fins with the RWR aerial they fitted the rear facing part of the RWR in the extra extra extension!  

I might say none of this is mentioned in any of the Harrier books, I've gleaned it from mentions in the various texts and photo captions, and of close perusal of the drawings and photos.