Harrier and Sea Harrier

[Captain Canada]

I like the idea. I'd like to see more weapons hanging off Harriers. I also have to check into this Blue Fox/ Red Fox idea for future reference....

[Hman]

Does anyone have a list of possible export customers for GR1 - SHAR Mk1s? 

[Weaver]

Don't have a list, but IIRC, G-VTOL toured extensively around the Middle East in the 1970s (which is why it got painted in desert cammo) since that was felt to be the area where money might be spent on an aircraft that didn't need runways, following the Israeli pre-emptive strike in 1967. I belive it was also demonstrated in Switzerland and Japan.

[Captain Canada]

Would have been a good aero for Israel for sure !

[sandiego89]

Yes, G-VTOL made extensive rounds.  Shown to quite a few potential European users. I am away from my references for a few days, but I recall some South American interest as well. Think John Farley landed G-VTOL on the 25 de mayo as it transited from Europe. Australia came quite close to taking the SHAR and the invincible.

[Thorvic]

Another one was the sale of Bulwark and Harriers to Peru, plus of course China which wanted them to support forces on the border with Russia

[rickshaw]

There were many rumours throughout the 1970s and 1980s about China buying Harriers.  I always understood they were wanted for use against India in the Himalayas if the Sino-Indian war of 1960-61 restarted, which looked on the cards at various times (and because of the alliance between Pakistan and China).  Would have been an interesting coup if the sale had come off.

[Hman]

Apparently Idi Amin expressed interest, so I can add Uganda to the list!

[Mossie]

Add in Iran too.  The Shah was interested in up to five Invincible class carriers plus Sea Harriers but didn't have the capacity to man them.  It was part of an extensive shopping list that included F-16's, F-15's, Spruance class (the USN adopted the Iranian variant as the Kidd class) and Challenger tanks.

I actually finished an IRIN Sea Harrier, but made a mess of it after completion.  I'll see if I can dig it out.

[Captain Canada]

I actually finished an IRIN Sea Harrier, but made a mess of it after completion.  I'll see if I can dig it out.

I'd like to see that !

[NARSES2]

Add in Iran too.  The Shah was interested in up to five Invincible class carriers plus Sea Harriers but didn't have the capacity to man them. 

It's amazing how many countries have done that after spending an awful lot of money 

[nighthunter]

Ireland, of course!

[McColm]

What about the USSR or China, ideal customers in the Whiff world?

[Thorvic]

What about the USSR or China, ideal customers in the Whiff world?

Hi,

I am currently building a chineese Harrier, based on almost-happend sale from 1978.

I read somewhere (unfortunatelly can't remember where exactly) chineese version was based on FRS1 airframe with downgraded radar. Does anyone knows more details about it?

I also strongly consider arming it with Sparrow missiles. In the mid 80's China bought some Aspide Mk1 missiles from Italy (based on AIM-7E) and later build it as PL-10. Do you think Blue Fox would work with Sparrows?

My understanding is that the Chinese Harrier proposal would have had the FRS.1 airframe but with GR.3-style land-attack avionics, i.e. INS & LRMTS, instead of the radar, however I really don't have any concrete information on it.

Having said that though, it appears that the export version of Blue Fox was called Red Fox, which might be suggestive of it's potential destination, though it's hardly hard evidence.

Blue Fox was based on Seaspray which provides SARH illumination for Sea Skua AshMs, so I see no reason in principle why it couldn't provide it for Sparrow/Aspide, although it might need to be a special sub-version to add the capability back.

Don't forget to read the previous pages of the thread discussion as it was the PLAAF interest in the Harrier/SHAR in the 70s that triggered this current discussion 

[Weaver]

A comment on the thread about the new Aussie LHA got me wondering: what would happen if you kept the Harrier's concept and layout (proven to work) but re-designed it from scratch using the latest materials and systems?

The first thing I'd do is make it bigger. The size of the Harrier was governed by the size of the engine, which was in turn governed by the fact that it was derived from pre-existing components: an Orpheus gas generator and an Olympus fan. The available thrust limited useful payload to the point where early prototypes could only just take off carrying nothing, and payload/range has always been the type's weakest feature. High-bypass turbofan technology has moved on in leaps and bounds since then, so basing an all-new Harrier around a completely new, modern and bigger engine, together with a lightweight all-composite structure should give a much larger disposable load, which could be used for fuel or weapons. It wouldn't be any faster because the net exhaust gas velocity would still be low due to half of it being bypass air, but we've long got past the early-'60s idea that attack aircraft have to be supersonic.

Thoughts? Ideas?