Monitors

[NARSES2]

"Turrets" I think you'll find came significantly later to most navies.   Barbettes, either covered or open (more often open) consisting of a high, armoured wall which the gun fired over were more common until the 1890s IIRC.

Yup Barbettes were more common until the 1890's. Probably due to the extra weight and mechanical needs of multiple turrets. The idea had to wait for the technology to improve.

[rickshaw]

"Turrets" I think you'll find came significantly later to most navies.   Barbettes, either covered or open (more often open) consisting of a high, armoured wall which the gun fired over were more common until the 1890s IIRC.

Yup Barbettes were more common until the 1890's. Probably due to the extra weight and mechanical needs of multiple turrets. The idea had to wait for the technology to improve.

I think the problem may have been the difficulties in traversing such large masses of metal.  Until the invention and perfection of modern Hydraulics utilising oils, the only means to rotate the turret mass (the armoured gun house plus the gun, plus the loading apparatus) was mechanical and was easily and often jammed.

[PR19_Kit]

I think the problem may have been the difficulties in traversing such large masses of metal.  Until the invention and perfection of modern Hydraulics utilising oils, the only means to rotate the turret mass (the armoured gun house plus the gun, plus the loading apparatus) was mechanical and was easily and often jammed.

Even the use direct acting hydraulic rams would have only been of limited use as they'd have limited the traverse angle of the turret. It may have needed the invention of the hydrulic motor by Hallet in the early 1800s to be of real value here, as then the rotation could have been total.

I must admit some interest here as I was involved in the turret training system of the 'egg' Mk 8 turrets fitted to many RN ships, which used hydraulics. Bizarrely the elevation was electric powered, and the later, more angular version, uses electric power exclusively. Phillistines! 

[pyro-manic]

... HMS "Terror". Almost a laughable name for such a pipsqueak (ONE dual 15" turret), I still would be wary if I had to go up against it with merely a cruiser's battery. Terror was sunk by air attack off Tobruk.

I suspect the Italians she bombarded in North Africa thought the name highly appropriate!

[tigercat]

I wonder if there were any restrictions on Monitors for the German Navy. They did have lots of guns that ended up in coastal defence batteries plus they captured various navies which might have provided suitable armament.

I could see them proving useful in the baltic and in the invasion of Scandinavia although not sure after that.

Monitor as commerce raider ? They would need to be designed with a fair turn of speed but I suppose thats not without the bounds of possibility.  If they varied the hull design from the traditional Monitor type

 

[NARSES2]

I wonder if there were any restrictions on Monitors for the German Navy. 

Do you mean in terms of Versailles ?  All gets complicated but Germany was severly restricted to what it could have and was only allowed 6 ships over 10,000 tons.

The Naval sections of the Treaty can be found here http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/versailles159-213.htm

Monitors may have been useful in the Baltic but no where else other then perhaps guard ships at Wilhemshaven, Keil etc. Freeboards far to low for anything other then a calm sea and you wouldn't want to take them into anything like the Atlantic.

Perhaps they might have squeezed some "coastal battleships" out of the Treaty. I know the Dutch and Scandanavian's had a few of these.

Chris

[tigercat]

But in a WHIF universe they could have built them suitable for the Atlantic although at some point they stop being monitors and start being single turreted kamikaze commerce raiders as they'd have enough of a punch to maul a convoy but not enough to fight off any major enemy warship and would run aground if you tried to use them as monitors.

[rickshaw]

But in a WHIF universe they could have built them suitable for the Atlantic although at some point they stop being monitors and start being single turreted kamikaze commerce raiders as they'd have enough of a punch to maul a convoy but not enough to fight off any major enemy warship and would run aground if you tried to use them as monitors.

You mean like the so-called "Pocket" Battleships were? 

[Doc Yo]

 Different breed of catfish, that.... Monitors? Never heard of 'em...

[Joe C-P]

Different breed of catfish, that.... Monitors? Never heard of 'em...

Ummm... interesting, veeeery interesting. 

Monitors have changed their designs and roles over the years.

The Germans in WW2 might have used one of the triple-barreled 11" turrets from Scharnhorst/Gniesenau, or one of the twin 15" from Tirpitz, to travel the coast of the Baltic.
They also used their WW1-era pre-dreadnoughts early in the war; those were slow and old, with only 4 main guns, so not much use in combat but good enough to carry large caliber guns to battles within range of the sea.

[tigercat]

You mean like the so-called "Pocket" Battleships were? 

parallel evolution

and of course they would have been useful in Operation Seelowe

[NARSES2]

Quote Joe P "They also used their WW1-era pre-dreadnoughts early in the war; those were slow and old, with only 4 main guns, so not much use in combat but good enough to carry large caliber guns to battles within range of the sea."

Indeed Joe and one fired the first shots of WWII at Danzig

But in a WHIF universe they could have built them suitable for the Atlantic although at some point they stop being monitors and start being single turreted kamikaze commerce raiders as they'd have enough of a punch to maul a convoy but not enough to fight off any major enemy warship and would run aground if you tried to use them as monitors.

Yup when does a Monitor become a Coastal Battleship or even a Pocket Battleship ?

I suppose the origional plans for HMS Furious and Glorious with their 18" guns could almost describe your "sea going monitor"

[tigercat]

 "More than 600 special vessels would be required, including landing craft, minesweepers, destroyers, light cruisers, monitors, and some  heavy shallow draft support ships . The latter were built in the form of the three "battlecruisers"; HMS Glorious, HMS Furious, and HMS Courageous.[1][2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Project


  heavy shallow draft support ships that would seem to sum up the philosophy of Monitors to a tee

I wonder what other ships they would have had in  mind.

[pyro-manic]

I think speed and armour (or lack thereof) are very important. Monitors were generally very slow, as they weren't supposed to be anything other than a mobile gun battery, and weren't meant to fight other ships so weren't very well protected.

[NARSES2]

HMS Glorious, HMS Furious, and HMS Courageous. As planed they were very stange ships. Unique one could even say. Definately not monitors IMHO, a unique class