B-58 instead of TSR2 ?

[sandiegobrit]

Hi everyone,
Let me introduce myself am a new member here I have been modelling (both scale and R/C since a kid) ,I have worked in the Aerospace industry for quite a while including 10 years at Rolls-Royce and nearly 10 years at another turbine manufacturer in the USA.
I have a fascination for all things related to prototypes and cancelled projects since I read the article on the TSR2 in the old SPEED&POWER mag in the UK as a kid. I have a copy of 'Project Cancelled' by my bedside as light reading and build my vacations around aircraft museums (yup i'm that bad).

The TSR2 has always been one of my favorite aircraft (I have seen both examples in the museums and they leave me feeling so depressed over the waste of talent and resources that they represent to me).

I know that what i am about to suggest may be sacrilege to some but here goes (why not make my first post a contentious one?). I have been wondering for quite a while about what would have happened if the TSR2 had been killed off in its infancy ie. late 50's early 60's timescale before any metal had been cut and instead and 'Anglicized' version of the B-58 Hustler had been developed instead ?

Anyone interested in the idea i have a rather long alternate history for the idea if anyone would like me to post it?
Steve P

[GTX]

Anyone interested in the idea i have a rather long alternate history for the idea if anyone would like me to post it?

Steve,

Talk about a silly question!  Of course we'd love to see it - I would post it here.

BTW, welcome aboard.

Which other turbine manufacturer did you work for:  P&W, GE or Allison?

Regards,

Greg

[The Big Gimper]

Hi SDB:

You have already have some fellow believers/converts:

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,33707.0/highlight,hustler.html

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,30554.0/highlight,b-58.html

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,23808.0/highlight,b-58.html

Cheers, Carl

[GTX]

Steve,

You might also like this 617 Sqn Hustler RAF recently posted by one of our number.

Regards,

Greg

[GTX]

Damn Carl, you're too quick!

[sandiegobrit]

Thanks Guys I'll post the full alternative history for the B-58K on Monday or Tuesday (its on my PC at work (yes i work on alternate histories during my lunch-break .
I have the Monogram B-58 in 1/48th to build over the winter (not that we get one of those here in San Diego) and it was intended as a way of improving my skills so I am ready to do my 1/48th airfix TSR2 (imported from the UK by my loving wifeas my chistmas present the year it came out)
I am doing the b-58 in anti-flash white (if i can get another one at a local hobby store i might try doing tone in 70 grey-green camo as well).
Steve P.

[DamienB]

I know that what i am about to suggest may be sacrilege to some but here goes (why not make my first post a contentious one?). I have been wondering for quite a while about what would have happened if the TSR2 had been killed off in its infancy ie. late 50's early 60's timescale before any metal had been cut and instead and 'Anglicized' version of the B-58 Hustler had been developed instead ?

The B-58 was considered on more than one occasion by the RAF during the generation of GOR.339 and even after its issue, so you could feasibly have it chosen for GOR.339 with no need for TSR2 to have ever existed. But given the RAF's absolute requirement for low level operation, perhaps some new engines in those pods instead of those thirsty turbojets might make sense...

[Weaver]

If anything, the B-58 was more suited to the RAF than the USAF, given the ranges involved...

Welocme aboard, by the way.


Weaver
TSR-2 non-believer 

[deathjester]

Hmm, interesting ideas - do you think that the Hustler could be paired up with Blue Steel?  Maybe in the recess for the weapons pod?

[pyro-manic]

The belly pod contained quite a bit of fuel, IIRC, so losing it might not be the best idea. You could do a "Phantom" and switch the J79s out for Speys. That would be a big help at low level in terms of fuel use, and also makes it more "politically acceptable". Maybe clip the wings to smooth out the ride at low level?

[Weaver]

Well the TSR.2 had thirsty turbojets too (part of it's problem...).

An alternative approach would be to make the missile as big and long-ranged as possible and make it do the low-level stuff so the B-58 didn't have to. MTBF for the missile's avionics would only have to be longer than the one-way flight and it could have vastly fewer waypoints than the TSR.2. Alternatively, you could make it ballistic using Skybolt/Polaris technology.

Another approach for the airframe would be to fit each inboard pylon with two afterburning Conways (plenty of B-58 schemes used twiinned enignes) and use the outer ones for drop tanks, thus making the weapon independent from the disposable fuel.

[Mossie]

Would love to see it Sandiego!  Antiflash white would look great.  If you only get time to do one, how about a compromise between the two schemes, grey/green topsides with anti-flash undersides like some V-bombers, or even the high demarcation that was slated for TSR.2?

Mentioning missiles, I saw in Chris Gibson's Vulcan's Hammer that the Hustler was strongly proposed as a Skybolt carrier.  Might take a bit of scratching in 1/48, but would be worth it!

[rickshaw]

Well the TSR.2 had thirsty turbojets too (part of it's problem...).

An alternative approach would be to make the missile as big and long-ranged as possible and make it do the low-level stuff so the B-58 didn't have to.

There is a practical limit to the range that an inertial guided weapon like Blue Steel can be made to work, as is made clear in "Vulcan's Hammer".  Beyond 500 miles the inertial guidance system rapidly looses accuracy.   500 miles sounds like a long way but again, as "Vulcan's Hammer" makes clear, it rapidly was reduced even further by fuel load and of course the inaccuracy of maps, the improved AA defences of the fUSSR and so on.

[DamienB]

Well the TSR.2 had thirsty turbojets too (part of it's problem...).

Indeed, I was referring somewhat obliquely to the Olympus' competitor for the TSR2, the Medway, which in a world that chooses the B-58 instead of building a British jet, might make a more sensible decision about which engine to go with too...

[deathjester]

Well the TSR.2 had thirsty turbojets too (part of it's problem...).

I only have one answer to these slanders my befuddled friend - as Jeremy Clarkson might say....'POWEEER!!!



Seriously, I did wonder about making the missile do all the hard work: would the Carousel INS fare any better in that role - it did ok on Black Buck.