P-38 and Carrier Suitability

[KJ_Lesnick]

Allegedly some P-38's were operated off carriers during WW2.  How did they do off the deck?

[jcf]

Alleged by whom?

[PR19_Kit]

Where did they have the hook?

[rickshaw]

First I've heard of it.  I do know the USN operated several P-38 reconnaissance aircraft they "inherited" in North Africa from the USAAF however that was from land bases.  I am also aware that Lockheed proposed a carrier version of the P-38 to the USN but it never progressed beyond the proposal stage.  It was to have folding wings and a arrester hook.  I suspect that the hook would have been attached to the central nacelle at the rear, either in a "V" or a stinger.  It would have had to be pretty long to get down below that very long undercarriage.  The USN rejected it because they felt that the P-38 was too large for carrier ops.

[KJ_Lesnick]

rickshaw

In what respect was it considered to be too large?  Length, span, weight?

[raafif]

I don't care ... be an interesting build with 3-tone paint !! 

[famvburg]

     ISTR two versions proposed at various times. One I had the V-12 engine but another had either R-1830s or R-2000s & a different main landing gear. I built a model of it & I'll have to see if I can find the drawings I had of it. IIRC both versions the hook was at the rear of the fuselage & wasn't really all that long. Also ISTR that some P-38s were transported aboard carriers but whether they wre even flown off, like some P-47s, P-51s, P-40s(?) & other land based types were, I don't know.

First I've heard of it.  I do know the USN operated several P-38 reconnaissance aircraft they "inherited" in North Africa from the USAAF however that was from land bases.  I am also aware that Lockheed proposed a carrier version of the P-38 to the USN but it never progressed beyond the proposal stage.  It was to have folding wings and a arrester hook.  I suspect that the hook would have been attached to the central nacelle at the rear, either in a "V" or a stinger.  It would have had to be pretty long to get down below that very long undercarriage.  The USN rejected it because they felt that the P-38 was too large for carrier ops.

[Jschmus]

Given the way they were ferried, it seems likely they were craned off and reassembled on land.  Picture from Wikepedia.


The Wiki article had this to say about the proposed naval variant:

Lockheed proposed a carrier-based Model 822 version of the Lightning for the United States Navy. The Model 822 would have featured folding wings, an arresting hook, and stronger undercarriage for carrier operations. The Navy was not interested, as they regarded the Lightning as too big for carrier operations and did not like liquid-cooled engines anyway, and the Model 822 never went beyond the paper stage. However, the Navy did operate four land-based F-5Bs in North Africa, inherited from the USAAF and redesignated FO-1.

[rickshaw]

rickshaw

In what respect was it considered to be too large?  Length, span, weight?

Dunno, the comment on the Boys and Girls Book of World Knowledge just said "too large".

Lockheed proposed a carrier-based Model 822 version of the Lightning for the United States Navy. The Model 822 would have featured folding wings, an arresting hook, and stronger undercarriage for carrier operations. The Navy was not interested, as they regarded the Lightning as too big for carrier operations and did not like liquid-cooled engines anyway, and the Model 822 never went beyond the paper stage. However, the Navy did operate four land-based F-5Bs in North Africa, inherited from the USAAF and redesignated FO-1.

[RussC]

Too big for the smaller Enterprise/Wasp/Hornet class of the era. The Essex and Midway class were going to operate Tigercats and the AJ Savage twin engine.
 
The Grumman Skyrocket twin was not much smaller than a 38' though. Maybe if the P-38 was a Grumman product... 

[KJ_Lesnick]

RussC

What was the maximum size and operating weights for aircraft used on the Enterprise/Wasp/Hornet?

[RussC]

Biggest was the TBM Avenger. Of course B-25's were flown off the Hornet, not landed.

[scooter]

Most information is c/p out of Wikipedia, with some discrepancies noted from Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II

Grumman:

TBF/M Avenger:
Length: 40 ft 11.5 in (12.48 m) (Jane's WWII A/C says 40' 1/8" length)
Wingspan: 54 ft 2 in [19] (16.51 m)
Height: 15 ft 5 in (4.70 m)
Wing area: 490.02 ft² (45.52 m²)
Empty weight: 10,545 lb (4,783 kg)
Loaded weight: 17,893 lb (8,115 kg) (Jane's WWII A/C says 15536 lbs)

F4F-3 Wildcat
Length: 28 ft 9 in (8.76 m)
Wingspan: 38 ft (11.58 m)
Height: 11 ft 10 in (3.60 m)
Loaded weight: 7,000 lb (3,200 kg)

F4F-4 Wildcat
Length: 28 ft 9 in (8.8 m)
Wingspan: 38 ft 0 in (11.6 m)
Height: 9 ft 2.5 in (2.8 m)
Wing area: 260 ft² (24.2 m²)
Empty weight: 5,895 lb (2,674 kg)
Loaded weight: 7,975 lb (3,617 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 8,762 lb (3,974 kg)

F6F-5 Hellcat
Length: 33 ft 7 in (10.24 m)
Wingspan: 42 ft 10 in (13.06 m)
Height: 13 ft 1 in (3.99 m)
Wing area: 334 ft² (31 m²)
Empty weight: 9,238 lb (4,190 kg)
Loaded weight: 12,598 lb (5,714 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 15,415 lb (6,990 kg)

F7F-4N Tigercat (For Essex/Midway Class Operations)
Length: 45 ft 4 in (13.8 m)
Wingspan: 51 ft 6 in (15.7 m)
Height: 16 ft 7 in (5.1 m)
Wing area: 455 ft² (42.3 m²)
Empty weight: 16,270 lb (7,380 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 25,720 lb (11,670 kg)

F8F Bearcat
Length: 28 ft 3 in (8.61 m)
Wingspan: 35 ft 10 in (10.92 m)
Height: 13 ft 9 in (4.21 m)
Wing area: 244 ft²[45] (22.67 m²)
Empty weight: 7,070 lb (3,207 kg)
Loaded weight: 9,600 lb (4,354 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 12,947 lb (5,873 kg)

Douglas Aircraft Company

SBD-5 Dauntless
Length: 33 ft 1¼ in (10.09 m)
Wingspan: 41 ft 6⅜ in (12.66 m)
Height: 13 ft 7 in (4.14 m)
Wing area: 325 ft² (30.19 m²)
Empty weight: 6,404 lb (2,905 kg)
Loaded weight: 9,359 lb (4,245 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 10,700 lb (4,853 kg)

TBD-1 Devastator
Length: 35 ft 0 in (10.67 m)
Wingspan: 50 ft 0 in (15.24 m)
Height: 15 ft 1 in (4.60 m)
Wing area: 422 ft² (39.2 m²)
Empty weight: 5,600 lb (2,540 kg)
Loaded weight: 9,289 lb (4,213 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 10,194 lb (4,624 kg)

Curtiss

SB2C Helldiver
Length: 36 ft 8 in (11.18 m)
Wingspan: 49 ft 9 in (15.17 m)
Height: 13 ft 2 in (4.01 m)
Wing area: 422 ft² (39.2 m²)
Empty weight: 10,547 lb (4,794 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 16,616 lb (7,553 kg)

And, for point of Reference, the P-38L specifications:
Length: 37 ft 10 in (11.53 m) (11.53 m)
Wingspan: 52 ft 0 in (15.85 m) (15.85 m)
Height: 12 ft 10 in (3.91 m) (3.91 m)
Wing area: 327.5 ft² (30.43 m²)
Empty weight: 12,800 lb (5,800 kg)
Loaded weight: 17,500 lb (7,940 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 21,600 lb (9,798 kg)

[jcf]

The original Lockheed proposal was the R-1535 powered Model 24 of 1937:


A modified Model 24 with un-turbosupercharged V-1710s was proposed in June 1939, it lost out to the Grumman XF5F-1.

The wartime Model 822 proposal was for a carrier strengthened V-1710-89/-91 powered P-38H airframe with folding wings
and arrestor hook. The Navy wasn't interested because of size and the use of a liquid cooled engine.

[MilitaryAircraft101]

Sorry, these were already second hand, so no credit here