First Nations air forces?

[Litvyak]

Whilst writing a reply in another thread, I had a thought.

What if, during the establishment of Canada and the US, the Iroquois and Mohawks managed to remain independent?

Or, perhaps, at a somewhat later time: the South wins the War Between The States, and from the remainder of the United States, the Iroquois and perhaps some other First Nations declare their own independence from the US.

For expedience's sake (strength in unity) I suspect that whatever tribal/national differences may have existed, the various nations would've united to form a single state.

If the first, I suspect neither Britain nor the US would be overly friendly to them. Assuming their continued existence as a given, by the pre-WW2 period I would guess they'd be equipping with French, perhaps German equipment? And post-war, probably also French?

If the second, I'd think Britain would be rather more friendly to the new state, and so over the years would equip with primarily British and Canadian equipment.

I like this latter one, now that I think of it - it'd give me something to do with my Matchbox Lightning kit!

How's a Six Nations Air Force Lightning sound? A Haida Air Force Lightning is also a possibility...

I'd be very interested in seeing others' ideas on this subject!

[NARSES2]

It's an interesting idea.

One question however is what would the populations of these States have been ? I have no idea, however if they were significant then perhaps you could see them originally being colonial possessions but then given their independence in the same way as all the others were ?

My own view is to take your second postulation and the South wins the Civil War. They might then help establish the Nation as a bulwark against future Northern expansion ?

In all honesty I know next to nothing about the realities of all of this so please just ignore my ramblings if they aren't sensible

Chris

[Okwaho]

What if, during the establishment of Canada and the US, the Iroquois and Mohawks managed to remain independent?

Iroquois AND Mohawks?  

Litvyak, the Mohawks are an integral (and most dominant) part of the Iroquois Confederacy, properly known as the Haudenosaunee (or Rotinonshonni, as my people call it). "Haudenosaunee" translates roughly into "People of the Longhouse," and comprises (from east to west) the Mohawks, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca. It became known (incorrectly) as the Six Nations when the Tuscarora joined, but they were "adopted" by the Oneida and hold no voice in the Grand Council.

There is no separate "Iroquois" Nation, but I've run into quite a few French-Canadian "twinkies" (wannabe redskins) insisting they are descendant from that line. (And they wonder why Britain instead of France got Canada...)

Now on to your query about Britain and the US not being overly friendly towards us. Both sides tried to win us over to their camps, and it did happen that members of the Haudenosaunee did fight each other, though our Great Law expressly forbade it. Our treaties with both parties stipulated that we remain neutral in their affairs, but misguided individuals (including Joseph Brant) and the intrusion of our lands by both sides brought us into involvement with the War of Independence. George Washington further aggravated the whole mess by sending General Sullivan through our lands, destroying our crops and burning our villages. As Washington was the first US President, we refer to him and everyone who has held that office since then as Ranatakaras: He who destroys villages.

So if you're going to do us as having an air force, make sure you our flag (see my signature below) as our insignia. Waiting patiently to see your end result.  

Skennen.

[Joe C-P]

In the Patchwork World the Haudenonsaunee did stay independent, have become friendly business partners of the Dutch of Nieuw Amsterdam, and enemies of the religious fanatics of New Angleland, and also Pennadelphias, whom they blame for the death of the Lenni Lenapi tribes.

[Litvyak]

Iroquois AND Mohawks?

Eep, sorry! Showing off my ignorance there, I guess.

Thanks for the clarification, though! What little I know about First Nations is mostly about those out here in BC...

Looking at your flag, I'm thinking of a roundel. Would the tree inside a square, with colours reversed, be appropriate? Or would it be better to use the entire symbol?

[NARSES2]

Thanks for the clarrification Okwaho 

[Okwaho]

Litvyak, no worries about the ignorance on your part; I've seen a LOT worse! Just never walk up to one of our people and go "How" like they showed in the old westerns...you'll probably get a "Why" in return...or worse. The greeting "Hau" is Nakota/Dakota Sioux. The Mohawk greeting is "She:kon" and pronounced "Say-go."

As for the markings, that symbol must be used in its entirety, each square and the tree representing the member nations. Placing it inside a roundel would certainly look different, but the colours are never reversed. The exception to this would be a simple line graphic (usually purple) in the absence of a formal symbol. If you wanted to expand upon that, and indicate which specific Nation it belonged to, try adding a feather graphic like so: for Mohawks, three upright feathers; Oneida, two upright, one laying down; Onondaga, one upright, one laying down; Cayuga, one feather angled at forty-five degrees; and Seneca, one upright feather.

Hope that helps. 

[Litvyak]

It helps a lot, thank you!

An idea I had is to use that symbol as the "roundel" itself... yes, a clearer idea is forming in my head now that I know the emblems for the individual nations!

And as for "How" - I'd never have thought of it: I never liked westerns! Come to think of it, I don't even know how to say hello in Sto:lo, though my friend /did/ teach me a few, um, "interesting" words. (When I first met his dad, the first thing /he/ asked, was whether I'd learned "spi" and "spu" yet...)

[perttime]

bump...

I am told Native Americans, particularly Navajos, used a symbol that has now fallen to disfavor. Apparently, they stopped using it once this short guy with a funny moustache and persuasive manner became really famous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_use_of_the_swastika_in_the_early_20th_century#As_a_Native_American_symbol
http://nativeamericanjewelrytips.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/native-american-symbol-whirling-log-swastika/

Chilocco Indian Agricultural School basketball team in 1909:

[Okwaho]

bump...

I am told Native Americans, particularly Navajos, used a symbol that has now fallen to disfavor. Apparently, they stopped using it once this short guy with a funny moustache and persuasive manner became really famous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_use_of_the_swastika_in_the_early_20th_century#As_a_Native_American_symbol
http://nativeamericanjewelrytips.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/native-american-symbol-whirling-log-swastika/

Chilocco Indian Agricultural School basketball team in 1909:

Uhhh, no...plenty of First Nations still use that symbol on their dancing regalia. The Austrian corporal tilted it 45 degrees for his own take. The swastika is still used worldwide by some religions.

[perttime]

Uhhh, no...plenty of First Nations still use that symbol on their dancing regalia. The Austrian corporal tilted it 45 degrees for his own take. The swastika is still used worldwide by some religions.

Good to hear that the symbol wasn't surrendered to the short guy, after all.

I know the swastika is still used in more than just religious contexts.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?180779-Swastika-symbol-of-the-sun-not-Nazi-terror/page6

... but, relevant to this thread, an appropriately styled swastika might not be out of place on an American what-if model.

edit:
I suppose I could have written "whirling log" or "tsil no'oli" for "swastika" but that would be just the Navajo term.

[sequoiaranger]

One of these days I will be doing a "Curtiss Navahawk", a "contracted" aircraft for the "air force" of Native Americans that want to co-operate with the Allies to defeat Germany/Italy in WW II. The Navahawk will be a "twin-engined P-40" looking kind of like my "twin-engined Zero", and actually based on a real aircraft that Curtiss experimented with. The Native Americans wanted a distictive roundel that would would be easlily recognized as "Allied" from afar, and have blue, white, and red in it (can't be having the "tsil no'oli" here now, can we?). The "common" figure that appears in legends of the various Native American peoples of the Southwest is "Kokopelli", the mischievious, wandering storyteller and musician, so that is incorporated into the design:



The large star represents the United States; the small star the Native Americans. It is intended to have five white "points" resembling the American white star in a blue background (or even the Aussie white circle in a blue background---but you kind of have to un-focus your eyes!).

What to call this confederation of Navajos, Hopi, and Zuni peoples, the Navajo being the largest group represented?

Navajo Expeditionary Reserve Force (NERF)

Expeditionary Navajo Utilization Force (ENUF)

Native American Amalgamated Canyon Peoples (NAACP)

American Kokopelli Confederation (AKC)

"Navazunho" Confederation?

I think I will go with the "AKC", no "disrespect" or inferences intended with the dog organization with the same
initials ("American Kennel Club").

[rickshaw]

Could have been worse - Kokopelli Federation of Canyoners.   

What I'm interested in is the use of that symbol by Native Americans.  Does anybody know if its pre-Columbian in origin?

[sequoiaranger]

"Kokopelli has been worshipped since at least the time of the Ancient Pueblo Peoples. The first known images of him appear on Hohokam pottery dated to sometime between AD 750 and AD 850."

I'd say about 1400 years "Pre-Columbian"!