Scorpion Family

[Mossie]

Projects found on Secret Projects under the Alvis Sagiter name.  All based on the Stormer Chassis.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3947.msg31041.html#msg31041

ARES 75mm autmatic gun


Cockerill 90mm MkIII gun


76 mm L23A1 gun and twin TOW launcher

I beg to differ.  The turret appears to be much longer, the front and mantlet a different shape to that on a standard Scorpion turret.

I don't see it.  Very difficult to tell the length of the turret & the mantlet looks very similar to me.  Anyway, I did say 'basically', not exactly100%likey.

[DarrenP]

always thought a scorpion turret could have been added to either Fox hull or FV432

[rickshaw]

always thought a scorpion turret could have been added to either Fox hull or FV432

Fox was already dangerously top heavy with the turret designed for it.  The Scorpion turret was heavier still.   They did put a few Scimitar turrets on FV432 (which IIRC served with the Berlin Brigade).   Putting a Scorpion turret would be relatively simple and you'd have something equivalent to the Australian FSV/MRV.   A very useful vehicle, much missed in the RAAC as I understand it.

[Weaver]

Jordanian Scorpion upgraded with a Russian 2A72 30mm cannon and 4 x unspecified ATGWs:

[rickshaw]

Interesting and perhaps logical conversion.  Obviously not much to the mount if it needs that substantial external barrel support.  Runs counter to the British viewpoint on reconnaissance vehicles though ("needs a gun that can engage targets with HE").

[Thorvic]

Interesting and perhaps logical conversion.  Obviously not much to the mount if it needs that substantial external barrel support.  Runs counter to the British viewpoint on reconnaissance vehicles though ("needs a gun that can engage targets with HE").

Except British Scorpions dropped out of service during the 90s and recon is done with Scimitar and Scimitar2 armed with the 30mm rarden cannon

[Weaver]

As I understand it, the withdrawal of the Scorpions and their conversion into Sabres was down to two factors, neither of them tactical:

1. Originally, both 76mm and RARDEN ammo were "specialist" ammos that only needed to be supplied to the recce units via their own logistics. However, the introduction of the Warrior made RARDEN ammo universal, so by removing the 76mm, the recce units' ammo logistics could piggyback off the infantry units they were supporting.

2. The 76mm gun didn't have a fume extractor, it was apparently impossible or uneconomic to fit one, and new health and safety rules would lay the MoD open to claims of long-term injury due to cordite inhalation if they kept it in service.

[crudebuteffective]

Having served with guys who were in the 91 gulf war i have always believed that the 76mm was withdrawn because if the breach was opened too quickly after firing it sucked sand down the short barrel which caused the breech to jam

[rickshaw]

The actual reason was political.  The Conventional Forces in Europe arms reduction treaty considered anything with a gun bigger than 75mm towards the total for tanks which each signatory was allowed.  So, the choice was either a Scorpion with a 76mm gun or a Challenger with a 120mm gun.  Guess which won?

The lack of a fume extractor could have been easily handled with the NBC system running at an overpressure, it would have blown any fumes out the muzzle as soon as the breech was opened.

The 30mm Rarden ammunition argument is a bit spurious.  It was a standard round within the army and would have been treated as such by the logistics system, no matter how much the weapon was used or not.

I wonder if anybody here has heard of "Rarden Thumb"?   If you see someone missing their right thumb and is ex-Army that is usually the reason.  The weapon used to be cleared by checking with with the thumb.  If the weapon closed it's breech without warning, the clearer usually ended up with a smashed thumb which had to be amputated.   

[Weaver]

The actual reason was political.  The Conventional Forces in Europe arms reduction treaty considered anything with a gun bigger than 75mm towards the total for tanks which each signatory was allowed.  So, the choice was either a Scorpion with a 76mm gun or a Challenger with a 120mm gun.  Guess which won?

That seems a likely factor too.

The lack of a fume extractor could have been easily handled with the NBC system running at an overpressure, it would have blown any fumes out the muzzle as soon as the breech was opened.

I always thought that as well, but the fumes argument was put forward at the time.

The 30mm Rarden ammunition argument is a bit spurious.  It was a standard round within the army and would have been treated as such by the logistics system, no matter how much the weapon was used or not.

The issue wasn't the RARDEN round, it was the 76mm round. Originally both RARDEN and 76mm were equally "minority" but the Warrior forced the Army to buy and supply vastly greater quantities of the former. Reducing the number of different types of ammo is always an improvement from a logistics point of view, and the relatively small number of 76mm users left made it the obvious candidate for phase-out. They didn't even need to supply more RARDEN ammo to compensate since the Sabre turrets came from scrapped Foxes, so the total number of RARDEN guns remained the same as before the change.

Yeah, I've heard of RARDEN thumb - it's not a popular weapon for all sorts of reasons....

[PR19_Kit]

I wonder if anybody here has heard of "Rarden Thumb"?   If you see someone missing their right thumb and is ex-Army that is usually the reason.  The weapon used to be cleared by checking with with the thumb.  If the weapon closed it's breech without warning, the clearer usually ended up with a smashed thumb which had to be amputated.   

I didn't know it had a name as such, but I knew a guy who'd lost his thumb like that.

During the early days of Gulf War I they were running into problems with sand ingenstion into the Rardens and the guys at Fort Halstead used one of my rigs to simulate the firing cycle, but they had no way of auto-loading the clips in the test lab so they had a bunch of squaddies doing it, taking shifts! One of them was missing his thumb and he warned me to keep clear of the breech part of the weapon, but I said I had more faith in my hydraulics than he had in the gun! 

[rickshaw]

The lack of a fume extractor could have been easily handled with the NBC system running at an overpressure, it would have blown any fumes out the muzzle as soon as the breech was opened.

I always thought that as well, but the fumes argument was put forward at the time.

I've heard that reasoning as well but it doesn't really gell with me.  Another extractor fan or the NBC system should have been able to handle it, if the Army had really wanted the vehicle.  It sounds more like a convenient excuse than anything else.

The issue wasn't the RARDEN round, it was the 76mm round. Originally both RARDEN and 76mm were equally "minority" but the Warrior forced the Army to buy and supply vastly greater quantities of the former. Reducing the number of different types of ammo is always an improvement from a logistics point of view, and the relatively small number of 76mm users left made it the obvious candidate for phase-out. They didn't even need to supply more RARDEN ammo to compensate since the Sabre turrets came from scrapped Foxes, so the total number of RARDEN guns remained the same as before the change.

Up until 12 years ago, that was the standard thinking in military circles.  Today, there seems to be an over-abundance of specialised ammunition in every army, as odd, strange and different calibres have been adopted willy-nilly during "The War on Terror(ism)"(tm) .   76mm is AIUI still being manufactured for export customers.

I found the Spartans fitted with Scimitar turrets quite an interesting conversion.  I expect they'll be much more popular than the standard Scimitar/Scorpion hulls if for nothing else the extra room in them.  Do they retain the rear door and can they carry a trooper or two in the back still?

Yeah, I've heard of RARDEN thumb - it's not a popular weapon for all sorts of reasons....

It's interesting that the British would be the only nation to design such a dangerous weapon clearing procedure.

[Weaver]

I found the Spartans fitted with Scimitar turrets quite an interesting conversion.  I expect they'll be much more popular than the standard Scimitar/Scorpion hulls if for nothing else the extra room in them.  Do they retain the rear door and can they carry a trooper or two in the back still?

They do retain the rear door, but I'm not sure how much room there is in there. The main motivation for the change seems to be mine-protection, with "hanging" seats etc.. and having the space for a protected fuel tank (the original one was plastic!).

Yeah, I've heard of RARDEN thumb - it's not a popular weapon for all sorts of reasons....

It's interesting that the British would be the only nation to design such a dangerous weapon clearing procedure.

Oh I don't know: the Russians are quite good at "dangerous to user" too....

[Rheged]

The actual reason was political.  The Conventional Forces in Europe arms reduction treaty considered anything with a gun bigger than 75mm towards the total for tanks which each signatory was allowed.  So, the choice was either a Scorpion with a 76mm gun or a Challenger with a 120mm gun.  Guess which won?

So that would account for the sudden demise of the Saladin armoured car?

[pyro-manic]

Yeah, I've heard of RARDEN thumb - it's not a popular weapon for all sorts of reasons....

It's interesting that the British would be the only nation to design such a dangerous weapon clearing procedure.

Oh I don't know: the Russians are quite good at "dangerous to user" too....

You'd think a simple stick would be better than using your thumb? Obviously call it something else, but it would just be a length of wood or metal you'd poke into the breech? Or is that too sensible?