Scorpion Family

[Weaver]

The actual reason was political.  The Conventional Forces in Europe arms reduction treaty considered anything with a gun bigger than 75mm towards the total for tanks which each signatory was allowed.  So, the choice was either a Scorpion with a 76mm gun or a Challenger with a 120mm gun.  Guess which won?

So that would account for the sudden demise of the Saladin armoured car?

The Saladin was gone from British service long before CFE.

[rickshaw]

The actual reason was political.  The Conventional Forces in Europe arms reduction treaty considered anything with a gun bigger than 75mm towards the total for tanks which each signatory was allowed.  So, the choice was either a Scorpion with a 76mm gun or a Challenger with a 120mm gun.  Guess which won?

So that would account for the sudden demise of the Saladin armoured car?

The Saladin was gone from British service long before CFE.

It was still held in War Emergency Reserve Stocks though, which is why there were a sudden glut of Saladins on the private market, along with many other "out of service" vehicles at the time.   They were still counted towards the totals for the Treaty.

[rickshaw]

Yeah, I've heard of RARDEN thumb - it's not a popular weapon for all sorts of reasons....

It's interesting that the British would be the only nation to design such a dangerous weapon clearing procedure.

Oh I don't know: the Russians are quite good at "dangerous to user" too....

You'd think a simple stick would be better than using your thumb? Obviously call it something else, but it would just be a length of wood or metal you'd poke into the breech? Or is that too sensible?

Too sensible.   A stick with a right-angle on the end.  Problem though, would be it would always be not where it's needed, when it's needed.  Lost, broken, stolen ("but it makes a wonderful stand for the Billy over the campfire!"  "Needed some kindling", etc.  ).  Thumbs don't do that.  Soldiers, being soldiers, they'll always use the most convenient even if dangerous tool to do the job.   I'd have suggested a breech indicator - up, when something's in the breech, down when there isn't anything there.

[PR19_Kit]

It was more an issue that the breech would close of it's own accord as there wasn't a manual lock to hold it back.

When we built the rig for Fort Halstead we had an auxiliary jack that positioned a damn great bar in front of some part of the weapon that stopped it closing even it tried. Working out the interlock chain to ensure the bar was retracted BEFORE we 'fired' it was an interesting exercise! 

[MAD]

Having had a bit of a hunt around I suspect its actually a Stormer 90 - which mounted a 90mm gun (although the first post's picture appears to be missing its muzzle brake.

I would have said it was based on the AMX-10P APC chassis 

M.A.D

[Weaver]

Another use for a Scorpion turret, this time on an 8x8 APC project from KADDB in Jordan.
I'm afraid I can't find out any more about this vehicle, so I presume it never got any further than pretty artwork.
The turret looks to be armed with a Russian 2A42 30mm cannon like the one they actually built (see earlier in this thread).

[ysi_maniac]

^^^^^
similarities???

What if an 8 wheels Scorpion?

[Weaver]

LOL - A Scorpion's only about the length of an LWB Landrover, so you could probably get away with a 4x4. The 8x8 would have wheels so small it'd be like the world's most heavily armed Supercat...

[Logan Hartke]

I had that same thought, Weaver, so I chose a smaller chassis, the YP-408, from closer to the time period of the CVR(T) family and scaled the turret to match, including a turret ring extension that considers the angled upper hull.



This would be a Dutch variant in place of the M113 C&V (also known as the Lynx or M113 ½). It would increase commonality with the Belgian and British armies and provide greater speed, strategic mobility, and firepower, albeit at the cost of greater size.

Also, I chose the Scimitar turret which I think is better fit and much better looking, but the Scorpion is still an option, too.



I'm calling it the YP-408 Pantserwiel Verkenning, abbreviated as YP-408 PWVK. I don't know about anybody else, but I like the looks of it more than the Bundeswehr's Spähpanzer Luchs of the same era.

Cheers,

Logan

[Weaver]

The actual reason was political.  The Conventional Forces in Europe arms reduction treaty considered anything with a gun bigger than 75mm towards the total for tanks which each signatory was allowed.  So, the choice was either a Scorpion with a 76mm gun or a Challenger with a 120mm gun.  Guess which won?

Just been reading the CFE Treaty here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/273132/2294.pdf

Doing so clarifies this point a little and makes it make more sense.

1. The Scorpion's 76mm gun did NOT make it count towards the number of 'battle tanks' under the treaty, because the definition of a 'battle tank' included an unladen weight of over 16.5 metric tons, and the Scorpion was comfortably less than half of that.

2. What the Scorpion's 76mm gun did get it was a classification as a 'heavy armament combat vehicle', i.e. anything over 6 metric tons with a gun over 75mm that didn't qualify as an 'armoured personnel carrier' or an 'armoured infantry fighting vehicle'. The Scorpion is specifically listed as a 'heavy armament combat vehicle' in a table defining the status of pre-existing systems.

3. Interestingly, the Scimitar isn't mentioned at all, even in a table of pre-existing equipment that is NOT covered by the treaty.

4. The treaty set separate limits on 'battle tanks' and 'armoured fighting vehicles' the latter category including 'armoured personnel carriers', 'armoured infantry fighting vehicles' and  'heavy armament combat vehicles'. This meant that NATO as a whole could have as many Scimitars & Sabres as they wanted, but every Scorpion came out of the treaty-limited pool of vehicles that included the FV432, the M113, the Warrior, the Bradley, the Marder etc... It's unlikely therefore that the Scorpion was retired in order to save British Army Challengers: it was retired in order to avoid restricting the numbers of Warriors, Bradleys, Marders et al across NATO as a whole.


Footnote: you might very well wonder where the BMP-3's 100mm gun got it, since, at 18.5 tonnes, the vehicle meets all the criteria for a 'battle tank'. The answer is that it was classified as an 'armoured infantry fighting vehicle', along with all the other BMPs, Bradleys, Warriors and Marders, in the table defining the status of existing systems. Presumably this was the outcome of some horse-trading in the negotiations. It does, however, open the door to the 'what-if' possibility of a Warrior fitted with a Scorpion turret and retaining capacity for dismounts (say 4) being permitted under the treaty.

[Gondor]

LOL - A Scorpion's only about the length of an LWB Landrover, so you could probably get away with a 4x4. The 8x8 would have wheels so small it'd be like the world's most heavily armed Supercat...

Sounds as if your talking about the FV721 Fox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_armoured_reconnaissance_vehicle

Gondor

[Steel Penguin]

id rather have the tracks, and not the desire to roll over, Fox as rather top heavy from what ive heard

[NARSES2]

id rather have the tracks, and not the desire to roll over, Fox as rather top heavy from what ive heard

I remember Fox more as being issued to the TA than regulars. But that may be that one of our local TA units was Fox equipped for a couple of years before it closed/amalgamated.

[PR19_Kit]

Various suppliers were doing a LOT of development work on the Fox chassis parts in the mid-80s, I never did find out if they fixed it, but from the above comments I guess they didn't.

[Gondor]

I remember the Old Airfix Magazine, A5 size one, haveing a scratch build article on building the Fox. 1970 something

Gondor