RLM to Humbrol equivalents

[Weaver]

Okay, but of input needed here folks...

I've just started a PM Messerschmitt P.1111, and I'm trying to figure out what colours to paint it. The instructions, and every equivalence table I can find, including the usual well-respected on-line sources, either give contradictory cross-references (i.e. the Revell "equivalent" looks nothing like the Tamiya "equivalent") or a range of options covering several significantly different shades.



The suggested colours are:

RLM 81 Braunviolett (splinter on the wings)

RLM 82/83* Dunkelgrun (splinter on wings and mottle on fuselage) *The instructions say RLM 82 but this appears to be a misprint since RLM 82 was Lichtgrun not Dunkelgrun, although some colour charts show the two as being almost identical (see what I mean?)

RLM 76 Hellgrau (undersides and mottle base on fuselage)



What are your suggestions for the best Humbrol enamel equivalents for these?

I know full well that RLM codes are a contentious minefield and that shades changed over time and in the transition from theory to practice. I don't particularly want to be super-JMN-correct about it (since it's a Luft'46 Whiff anyway), I just want a bit of input from those more experienced in such matter than I am before I make a decision.

[Hobbes]

This conversion chart allows you to convert from RLM to Humbrol directly.

[Weaver]

This conversion chart allows you to convert from RLM to Humbrol directly.

Yes, that's one of the things I've looked at. The trouble is, it gives many alternatives for each RLM colour, some of which are radically different from each other. For instance:

RLM 81 Braunviolett :

Paint4models chart: FS 10049, Hu:98 Chocolate, Hu:20 Crimson or Hu:9 Tan


IPMS Stockholm: FS 30045, 34087, 30118 or 34088,

3 parts Hu:150 + 2 parts Hu:33
OR
3 parts Hu:163 + 4 parts Hu:108 + 3 parts Hu:33
OR
85%*Hu:173  + 9%*Hu:153 + 6%*Hu:85, Hu:155)


Instructions: FS34087, Hu:155, Revell 66*


Humbrol:  Revell 66 = Hu:66 Matt Olive Drab ( )


Do you see why my head exploded now? 

Basically, I want the opinions and experience of people who build German WWII stuff - what LOOKS right, basically.

[PR19_Kit]

Look out, you'll start thinking in those darned RLM numbers if you're not careful! 

[Pellson]

Quite a few of the RLM colours actually changed more or less over the years due to availability of ingredients, local adaptations in different theatres etc so there is no real facit to turn to unless you really want to pin down an exact location at a certain date. If so, God help your soul, mate..   

[TsrJoe]

If its for your current 1111 project, the wings and tail fin of the flown RAE. komet were repainted in dark green, probably the standard RAF. colour, with the undersurfaces in yellow ! might add even more colour to your model and tie it closer with the actual Komet ?

Cheers, joe

Ps, the fuselage remained in RLM.76 with green and brownish RLM. coloured overspray!

[Weaver]

If its for your current 1111 project, the wings and tail fin of the flown RAE. komet were repainted in dark green, probably the standard RAF. colour, with the undersurfaces in yellow ! might add even more colour to your model and tie it closer with the actual Komet ?

Cheers, joe

Ps, the fuselage remained in RLM.76 with green and brownish RLM. coloured overspray!

Cheers Joe. The RAE Komet seems to have a mini-debate of it's own going, all the available pics being black and white. Some souces claim the underside was yellow (presumably Trainer Yellow) and others that it was left RLM 76. Some sources have the fuselage in RAF cammo, others have it left in RLM 76-based "squiggle" with an RAF dark green band across the middle, while still others have it untouched. There's also no agreement about the "squiggle", with some showing "worms" and others showing "patches".

When you get to the wings, I've seen at least four versions:

1. Overall light grey with one big patch of RAF dark green sprayed across both wings and the centre fuselage,

2. Complete re-spray in RAF dark green/brown cammo,

3. Untouched RLM 81/83 splinter,

4. RLM 81/83 splinter, partly oversprayed and "roundified" with RAF green/brown.

Option 4 appeals to me because it tells a story: it was presumably done (if it was done) to cover the wing crosses, which seems logical since one of the few points of agreement is that the front part of the fin was sprayed RAF dark green (presumably to cover the swastikas). The placement of the fuselage roundels was certainly dictated by covering the crosses: you can see them showing through even on the B & Ws...

[TsrJoe]

Undersurfaces definately look to have been repainted yellow, i agree theres room for debate re the upper repainting colour used, when i modelled the aircraft i went for a best guess from photos of the aircraft which i interpreted as a plain overpaint as seen on the tail. Again guessing but it being a small airframe i cant see the RAE. chaps applying camouflage as such, kindv pointless unless repainting the whole aircraft? again all surmisation, anything goes really as based on black and white imagery

Cheers, joe

[kitnut617]

There's a colour photo of one of the Me.163's that RAE tested in the book 'War Prizes' by Phil Butler printed in 1994 and reprinted 1998 (got a copy of this one) . It looks like the paint was left as they found it.

[Weaver]

Okay, having done some more research on the colour equivalence issue (i.e. looked at a variety of kit instructions), I've come to the following important conclusions:

1. It's all a load of bollocks (because nobody really knows anyway)
2. It's all a load of bollocks (because the colours changed over time)
3. It's all a load of bollocks (because some of the colours are so dark that you'd have to lighten them for "scale colour" anyway)


I have therefore issued an Imperial Declaration that in all the realms over which my writ runs, RLM 81 Brunviolett is Hu:98 Chocolate, RLM 83 Dunkelgrun is Hu.116 US Dark Green and RLM 76 Hellgrau is Hu:65 Aircraft Blue, and thus shall it ever be so, and those who yearn for anguished debate upon the matter canst gird themselves and go forth with haste and precision. Amen.

Thank you for your input.

[Pellson]

Okay, having done some more research on the colour equivalence issue (i.e. looked at a variety of kit instructions), I've come to the following important conclusions:

1. It's all a load of bollocks (because nobody really knows anyway)
2. It's all a load of bollocks (because the colours changed over time)
3. It's all a load of bollocks (because some of the colours are so dark that you'd have to lighten them for "scale colour" anyway)


I have therefore issued an Imperial Declaration that in all the realms over which my writ runs, RLM 81 Brunviolett is Hu:98 Chocolate, RLM 83 Dunkelgrun is Hu.116 US Dark Green and RLM 76 Hellgrau is Hu:65 Aircraft Blue, and thus shall it ever be so, and those who yearn for anguished debate upon the matter canst gird themselves and go forth with haste and precision. Amen.

Thank you for your input.

Well spoken!

[TsrJoe]

No worries, i was going to check with Phil Butler and the FAST. archives re the scheme (there is surviving colour imagery of a lot of the captured German evaluation aircraft) but as you rightly say doesnt.matter, its all subjective anyway   def disagree with conclusions 1 and 2 tho 

Cheers, joe

[Weaver]

Cheers Joe.   There's no point getting bogged down in the issues around what the RAE Komet was really like, since I'm not making one; I'm making an RAE Me.1111. I was really more interested in the personal opinions of folk who make Luftwaffe stuff as to what colours to use to represent the "standard" RLM ones, but it seems so open to interpretation that I've just picked easy options (no mixing!) that look about right to me.

[NARSES2]

Okay, having done some more research on the colour equivalence issue (i.e. looked at a variety of kit instructions), I've come to the following important conclusions:

1. It's all a load of bollocks (because nobody really knows anyway)
2. It's all a load of bollocks (because the colours changed over time)
3. It's all a load of bollocks (because some of the colours are so dark that you'd have to lighten them for "scale colour" anyway)


I have therefore issued an Imperial Declaration that in all the realms over which my writ runs, RLM 81 Brunviolett is Hu:98 Chocolate, RLM 83 Dunkelgrun is Hu.116 US Dark Green and RLM 76 Hellgrau is Hu:65 Aircraft Blue, and thus shall it ever be so, and those who yearn for anguished debate upon the matter canst gird themselves and go forth with haste and precision. Amen.

Thank you for your input.

The colours you've chosen are the ones I was going to suggest Weaver, just not been around to much over the last couple of days, sorry mate

Chris

[NARSES2]

Okay, having done some more research on the colour equivalence issue (i.e. looked at a variety of kit instructions), I've come to the following important conclusions:

1. It's all a load of bollocks (because nobody really knows anyway)
2. It's all a load of bollocks (because the colours changed over time)
3. It's all a load of bollocks (because some of the colours are so dark that you'd have to lighten them for "scale colour" anyway)


I have therefore issued an Imperial Declaration that in all the realms over which my writ runs, RLM 81 Brunviolett is Hu:98 Chocolate, RLM 83 Dunkelgrun is Hu.116 US Dark Green and RLM 76 Hellgrau is Hu:65 Aircraft Blue, and thus shall it ever be so, and those who yearn for anguished debate upon the matter canst gird themselves and go forth with haste and precision. Amen.

Thank you for your input.

Well spoken!

Here, here and just to add my two-pennies worth, different people "see" the same colour differently, and I'm not just talking about colour blindness and men v women either.