RLM to Humbrol equivalents

[Weaver]

Cheers Chris - no worries.

Well there's nothing like being decisive, and I've been nothing like decisive..... Went to the LHS to get some Hu:98 and HU:116, and came back with both of them, plus tins of Hu:91 Black Green and Hu:30 Dark Green. Why? Well Hu:116 and Hu:91 look like one or the other of them should be a match for the real shade, but since the Hu:98 is maybe a little light for the brunviolett, it struck me that they might make it worse, so the Hu:30 might sit better next to it.

Of course I'll also be wanting some patches of "RAF dark green" on the finished model, and I've just found an internet debate about whether Hu:30 or Hu:116 is a better match for that....

Colour tests will occur shortly....

[Weaver]

Solved the RLM 76 Hellgrau problem anyway: digging around at the back of the paint drawer, I found a 25 year-old tin of Humbrol Authentics RLM 76 and, wonder of wonders, it was still liquid, and with a bit of patient stirring, it came up good.....

[Thorvic]

Guess what Weaver

Humbrol are doing RLM colours this year 

240 RLM 02 Grau
241 RLM 70
242 RLM 71
243 RLM 72
244 RLM 73
245 RLM 74
246 RLM 75
247 RLM 76
248 RLM 79
249 RLM 02 Sandbraun

[matrixone]

About those late war RLM colors on your Me P1111, had such an aircraft been actually built it would most likely have used the standard colors of RLM 81, RLM 82 for the topside and the new light green color for the undersurfaces. RLM 76 pale blue/gray was being phased out and replaced with the light green undersurface color as the war ended, no known RLM number has yet been identified for the light green paint shade but it was in wide spread use by several companies and was not simply a ''bad batch of 76'' like some researchers claimed a few years back.

Yes there were variations in RLM colors during the war but another thing to consider is how the colors were applied to the aircraft...late in the war when paints were in short supply they were sometimes thinned more than usual and when sprayed on the aircraft the paint was so thin the color looked quite different than the colors on the supplied paint samples used to check for accuracy.

Matrixone

[Weaver]

Cheers folks!

When they swapped the RLM 76 for the light green, did it only apply to the undersides or to fuselage Hellgrau areas too? The reason I ask is that my captured P.1111 will have had it's undersides painted Trainer Yellow by the RAF anyway, but it's supposed to still have green-squiggle-over-Hellgrau on the upper fuselage.

[matrixone]

Weaver,
The light green was to replace the RLM 76 pale blue/gray, if the fuselage sides were to have the RLM 76 color originally they would have have been painted the light green color if the aircraft had that color used on it.
I think part of the reason the switch was being made to the light green color was it would blend much better with the RLM 81 and RLM 82 colors and help provide much better camouflage effect while the aircraft was on the ground.

BTW, the light green undersurface color looks very much like the British Sky color with maybe a slight greener cast to it. When I mixed my paints to get this color I just added one drop of RLM 82 medium green to my bottle of British Sky paint and got a very close match.

Matrixone

[Weaver]

Cheers - would the British "Sky" be what's often called Duck Egg Blue (though it's really more greeny)?

[PR19_Kit]

Cheers - would the British "Sky" be what's often called Duck Egg Blue (though it's really more greeny)?

I've got some vintage tins of 'Sky' paint that are called 'Duck Egg Blue' on the tin as well!

[matrixone]

Weaver,
Since I mostly use Model Master enamels I can only speak for their line of paints and they make both Duck Egg Blue and Sky Type S colors, Humbrol might be very different in their product line.

Below is a model I built last year, its painted with RLM 82 and RLM 83 and the light green mix for the undersurfaces. Compare the light green undersurface color on the Ta 283 with the RLM 76 on the aircraft in the hangar.


Matrixone

[Weaver]

Cheers Matrixone - that's very helpful. The light green does indeed look like duck-egg blue, possibly a smidgeon greener...

I'll be doing some colour tests shortly, so I'll include duck-egg blue in them.

Great looking model BTW 

[Weaver]

Okay, colour tests:

Daylight, grey overcast, no artificial light, no flash:


As above, but close up:


The brown on both nacelles is Hu:98 Chocolate, which I think is a pretty good Brunviolett. Having done a bit more reading, I'm going to match that with the HU:30 Dark Green (nearest outer wing) as something like RLM 83. The Hu:91 Black Green on the opposite wing would probably look better on a 1/24th model, but in 1/72nd it just looks far too near to black. Intertestingly, HU:30 is supposed to be RAF Dark Green, but the consensus on various web forums seems to be that it's a rubbish match and I agree. I'm therefore taking their advice and going with Hu:116 US Dark Green (nearest inner wing) for the RAF overpaint patches.

That leaves the underside. The three colours on the fuselage are all disappointingly dark, particularly the HG:3 on the nose which is supposed to be a Humbrol Authentics match for RLM 76. However the far inner wing is promising. The front half is Hu:23 Duck Egg Blue and the back half is Revell:59 Sky. These look close to the mysterious codeless Luftwaffe light green which Matrixone refers to in his post: I'd appreciate your opinion on this Matrixone...

Just for interest, here's a couple under different lighting conditions:

Daylight plus flash:


Daylight plus fluorescent light:



The plot thickens on the Eric Brown Me-163 as well. A lot of the web sources, and the Hobbyboss kit which I've now got, have it that there were no RAF roundels on the top of the wings, yet you can clearly see them in the most common picture!  





Source: http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/vf241.htm

[matrixone]

Weaver,
Glad to see you are taking the time to look at your paint colors under different light conditions!

The dark brown color on the engine nacelles looks good for RLM 81, maybe it could be slightly lighter for an even better match.
I like the greenish color on the inside of the far wing...a very close match for the light green undersurface color.
The blue color on the nose is too dark for RLM 76, no problem there just lighten it with some white, I have to do the exact same thing with Model Master RLM 76 because its way too dark. (remember RLM 76 mid war was light blue/gray while late in the war it was more of a white/blue color)
BTW, the black green color on the outside of the far wing looks like it might be a good match for RLM 70 black green.

The only brand of paints that were good matches for WWII RLM colors was the Aeromaster enamels, all other brands that I have tried since then FAIL!
Since I can get Model Master enamels easier than I can other paint brands I use them but clearly I do not agree with their version of Luftwaffe colors, many of them are way off the mark and I always tint them in some way to get them closer to the correct colors and almost never use them as they come out of the bottle, the exceptions are RLM 74 and some of the colors used for markings. The worst Model Master RLM colors are easy to point out...RLM 70, RLM 71, and RLM 81, their RLM 81 looks like U.S. Army Olive Drab, even some armor modelers have used RLM 81 instead of Olive Drab on their models because they thought it looked better.

Matrixone

[Weaver]

Cheers Matrixone. 

In that case, I'll use the HU:23 Duck Egg Blue for the fuselage base colour and the wing undersides. The latter will then get overpainted with Trainer Yellow anyway, so it'll really end up being visible only as the base for squiggle on the upper fuselage. What I might do, if I feel like it, is mask and paint the black crosses on the underside of the wings, in the hope that they'll show through the yellow a bit, making it look more like an overspray: don't want to just do it with decals in case the two layers of decal film are too much.

Yes, I've seen RLM 81 matched to US Olive Drab on colour charts, which just seems totally bizarre...

[The Wooksta!]

I used to use RAF Sky for the greeny underside colour, dubbed RLM 84 by many.  HU23 is a good a match as any other Sky, although some said that the Xtracolour Mil 28 Grey/Green was closer.  I used to use that about 20 years ago and it did look the business.

Brunviolet.  There were two differing shades used.  The one used by Messerschmitt was a chocolate colour, other manufacturers used a more greeny shade. The chocolate colour you've got looks bang on. 

[Dizzyfugu]

Guess what Weaver

Humbrol are doing RLM colours this year 

240 RLM 02 Grau
241 RLM 70
242 RLM 71
243 RLM 72
244 RLM 73
245 RLM 74
246 RLM 75
247 RLM 76
248 RLM 79
249 RLM 02 Sandbraun

Anyone know when these will become available? Haven't seen anything about them in Germany - I use Testors Authentic RLM colors, but would like to try (and compare) the Humbrol alternatives...

BTW, concerning the load of bollocks: the RLM tones have a certain hue to them, and in combination they strongly support the "German" look of a model. It's like a signal code. Sure, you can use alternatives or pure similar colors (I found, for instance, that RLM 76 is almost prefectly mimicked with FS36320, and RLM 81 with Olive Drab, e ,g. Humbrol 155), but it's the overall impression that you IMHO won't get this way. During late war time, it is almost "anything goes", because paint rests had been mixed and AFAIK even "conquered" enemy paints have been used by German crews. But still, I'd try to stay true to the original. In many cases color pictures help - not that printed or online pics show true colors, but it's rather the look of a model.