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F-104 & Supersonic Penetration

Started by KJ_Lesnick, January 18, 2012, 07:16:05 PM

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KJ_Lesnick

January 18, 2012, 07:16:05 PM
I remember hearing that the F-104 could get through the sound barrier at low altitudes by accident if the pilot wasn't watching the engine power: Was this in level flight or in shallow dives? 

KJ
Remember to read my sig...
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Captain Canada

#1
January 18, 2012, 08:24:32 PM
No idea, but I bet it could do it. Mind you, I'm pretty sure the old man said it was a bit of a dog compared to the mighty Voodoo......

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rickshaw

#2
January 19, 2012, 01:33:55 AM
I think it would have needed to go to afterburner to get up to supersonic speed at low altitude.  The inlet temperature would also be a severe limiter on how fast it could go, low down for extended periods.
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KJ_Lesnick

#3
January 20, 2012, 04:41:20 PM
Captain Canada

QuoteNo idea, but I bet it could do it.

Yeah, I remember reading about a case in 1963 where a F-104 ended up slipping through the sound barrier and booming a base.  The issue regarded sonic booms (ironically) and the feasibility of the SST program: At first it was believed that it would be economically infeasible to operate SST's unless they could operate over land.  So some officials from NASA and the FAA (I think) were given a demonstration of a series of F-104's flying supersonic at altitude to give them an idea of the over-pressures predicted.  Afterwords a USAF General was delivering a speech to these people about the benign nature of the Sonic Boom.

Ironically as this General was talking about the harmlessness of a sonic boom, an F-104 did a high-speed pass of the field and accidentally slipped through the sound-barrier (considering the slip-through was accidental, it didn't appear that any AB was used though I could be wrong).  It scared the crap out of these officials during the meeting, the General actually dropped a glass he was holding, and the overpressure cracked plaster and did some damage.


KJ
Remember to read my signature below....
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

kerick

#4
January 20, 2012, 07:31:49 PM
Also one of the drawbacks of the F-104 was the fact that after going supersonic for any length of time it had to go back to base for gas (especially the two seater).  This would be aggravated by low level flying.  Did you look at the Lockheed Lancer development of the F-104?
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PR19_Kit

#5
January 21, 2012, 03:20:10 AM
Quote from: kerick on January 20, 2012, 07:31:49 PM
Also one of the drawbacks of the F-104 was the fact that after going supersonic for any length of time it had to go back to base for gas (especially the two seater). 

I don't think that condition was limited to the F-104. The Lightning and the Mig-21 come to mind in a similar context.....  ;D
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
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sandiego89

#6
January 21, 2012, 07:28:53 AM
Well the Red Baron F-104 got to 988.26 mph way down low on the deck.  Quite impressive! 
Dave "Sandiego89"
Chesapeake, Virginia, USA

Joe C-P

#7
January 21, 2012, 08:55:41 AM
The Mythbusters had fun with a Blue Angels jet demonstrating that sonic booms, while loud and annoying, generally don't break glass.
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raafif

#8
January 21, 2012, 04:29:50 PM
Quote from: JoeP on January 21, 2012, 08:55:41 AM
The Mythbusters had fun with a Blue Angels jet demonstrating that sonic booms, while loud and annoying, generally don't break glass.

true .... but my 18" Cerwin Vega quadrophonic speakers do !!
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KJ_Lesnick

#9
January 26, 2012, 03:34:38 PM
kerick

QuoteAlso one of the drawbacks of the F-104 was the fact that after going supersonic for any length of time it had to go back to base for gas

Actually, I'm not so sure about that.  There was at least one person I talked to awhile back who flew F-104's and said the aircraft didn't have any range shortcomings.  I have also heard other comments to the same effect that it's range was at the very least comparable to other aircraft of the era.  The fuel fraction of the aircraft (which along with aerodynamic efficiency, engine efficiency, and flight profile all play a role in determining the range) was quite good and, being that the aircraft often carried streamlined drop-tanks, added additional fuel to the equation (lift was actually increased when either fuel tanks or missiles were carried on the wingtips due to the end-plate effect, though weight was increased)


K.J.
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

kerick

#10
January 26, 2012, 08:19:54 PM Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 08:24:59 PM by kerick
I was thinking of flying below radar at close or beyond Mach 1.  Its hard for any aircraft to keep that up for long.  Then of course you have to carry enough weapons to make it worth the trip.  F-105 and then the F-111 were much better at it.  F-104 definately had the thrust to do it, just was it a practical choice for the mission. 
Could make an interesting whif.  Conformal fuel tanks and a boat load of bombs! 
" Somewhere, between half true, and completely crazy, is a rainbow of nice colours "
Tophe the Wise

PR19_Kit

#11
January 27, 2012, 01:10:55 AM
Quote from: kerick on January 26, 2012, 08:19:54 PM
Could make an interesting whif.  Conformal fuel tanks and a boat load of bombs! 

And a landing speed of 300 kts with wings that small?  ;D :lol:
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

deathjester

#12
January 27, 2012, 03:30:51 AM
According to the Rowland White book Phoenix Squadron, the F-104's used by the Luftwaffe were blisteringly fast at low level, but entirely unable to manouvere, due to their not being stressed for it !!

Might be interesting to re-do the -104 to suit it better for this role, but would you then just end up with a Thud??

albeback

#13
January 27, 2012, 03:42:20 AM
Quote from: KJ_Lesnick on January 18, 2012, 07:16:05 PM
I remember hearing that the F-104 could get through the sound barrier at low altitudes by accident if the pilot wasn't watching the engine power: Was this in level flight or in shallow dives? 

KJ
Remember to read my sig...

It certainly could!! ;D I witnessed just such an event at Fairford in   (I think ) 1985. A pair of Lutwaffe F104s were doing a joint display. One came in low with everything hanging. The second came in even lower, very fast & pulled up ahead of the first F104.  The pilot went supersonic as he climbed. At that low altitude, the shockwave and sonic boom were most impressive!!

I'm sure he got a serious talking to after he landed!! ;D

I also remember talking to a Luftwaffe F-104 pilot at Fairford and he more or less comfirmed what you said. The acceleration for what was a relatively light aircraft was exceptional. He also confirmed that the 104 was extremely fast and steady at low level

Allan
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wagnersm

#14
January 27, 2012, 04:35:28 AM
Quote from: JoeP on January 21, 2012, 08:55:41 AM
The Mythbusters had fun with a Blue Angels jet demonstrating that sonic booms, while loud and annoying, generally don't break glass.

There is an article on the Wikipedia where an F104 going supersonic at the Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport broke some glass.

"In August 1959, a U.S. Air Force Lockheed F-104 Starfighter performed a low fly-by of the airport during celebration of the opening of a new terminal in Ottawa and accidentally went supersonic over the airport, causing windows and parts of the walls of the new terminal to shatter. The terminal was only reopened in 1960."     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Macdonald-Cartier_International_Airport

I remember reading that the sonic boom caused when an aircraft goes supersonic is rather powerful.

Steve
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