Whiffie Air Force Concepts

[KJ_Lesnick]

This is kind of just sort of an idea set-up for some art-work.  I was thinking about what would be a good list of aircraft for a fictitious Air Force of different eras and here's what I got so far.  I'd love to hear what you guys have to say

I've decided to divide this into several eras which would be listed as follows
E1: 1934 to 1939
E2: 1939 to 1945
E3: 1945 to 1950
E4: 1950 to 1955
E5: 1955 to 1965
E6: 1965 to 1975
E7: 1975 to 1992
E8: 1992 to present

This would be subdivided by aircraft category including
Fighters:
Bombers:
Observation/Reconnaissance

For the sake of simplicity, I've decided to classify attack planes as light-bombers as the USN did classify all it's dive-bombers, scout-bombers, and torpedo bombers as bombers, not attack planes; larger attack planes such as the Douglas A-20, A-26, would be classified as medium-bombers along with the North American B-25/PBJ, with the largest classified as heavy-bombers.

[PR19_Kit]

A quick run-through shows one possible problem.

How do you flight refuel a twin piston engined fighter, or indeed ANY piston engined fighter? Everywhere you try and put a probe or an IFR socket there's a danger of hitting a prop with the tanker bits I'd have thought.

[Mossie]

It's been done.  The earliest experiments used prop aircraft and helicopters are currently refuelled, it's higher risk but possible.  Twin engined aircraft could have a probe extending from the nose or cockpit in a similar way to multiple engined bombers and transports.  Single engined aircraft are trickier, the probe could be out on the wing and although this is isn't the ideal position it's been done.  The ideal procedure for prop aircraft would be the USAF's flying boom system.

[NARSES2]

As Mossie says it has been done. Again as Mossie says probably best if the tanker is flying boom type and the IFR probe is out on a wing somewhere.

[PR19_Kit]

I didn't suggest it was impossible, I was questioning whether it would be practical.

AFAIK it never has been been done with a probe and drogue or flying boom, all the prop-driven IFR sessions that have been done IIRC by the hose and grapnel system, in which the tanker flies alongside and higher than the receiver and the connection is from a hose reel in the tanker which is connected to the tail of the reciever. Both Imperial Airways and the USAF used this system and until recently the Soviet AF used it to refuel their Tu-16s etc.

[Green Dragon]

To get around the flight refueling gear possibly getting tangled in the props how about using pusher props on canard designs.
In my to do list are a canard Mosquito with guns in the nose plus a refueling probe above them, engines will stay as tractor props though.
Also want to do a pusher Spitfire but not sure if it'll be canard or twin boom layout.

Paul Harrison

[KJ_Lesnick]

Mossie

It's been done.  The earliest experiments used prop aircraft and helicopters are currently refuelled, it's higher risk but possible.  Twin engined aircraft could have a probe extending from the nose or cockpit in a similar way to multiple engined bombers and transports.

Yeah and one of the designs I was looking into was a design similar to the P-38/DH-103.  It's twin-engine configuration could allow this.

Single engined aircraft are trickier, the probe could be out on the wing and although this is isn't the ideal position it's been done.

I had thought of that as a possibility.


PR-19_Kit

AFAIK it never has been been done with a probe and drogue or flying boom, all the prop-driven IFR sessions that have been done IIRC by the hose and grapnel system

I do remember the USAAF had looked into this on extending bomber-range around 1942.  When the USAF first adopted an aerial-refuelling system were they using a hose and grapnel system at first or using a hose-n-drogue system for it's aerial refueling purposes?

What advantages did the hose-n-drogue have over the hose-n-grapnel system?

[PR19_Kit]

I do remember the USAAF had looked into this on extending bomber-range around 1942.  When the USAF first adopted an aerial-refuelling system were they using a hose and grapnel system at first or using a hose-n-drogue system for it's aerial refueling purposes?

What advantages did the hose-n-drogue have over the hose-n-grapnel system?

The USAAF were talking with Flight Refuelling Ltd from the UK for their first systems, as FRL supplied the stuff that Imperial Airways used for their westbound trans-Atlantic flights. At that time it was the hose and grapnel system, and the B-50 'Lucky Lady' used that for its non-stop round the world record flight in 1949. The aircraft still exists BTW, I saw it at Chino some years ago, but it's not in good shape.

That same year FRL had trialled the first probe and drogue system, which just required the tanker to fly straight and level while the reciever did all the work in flying the probe into the drogue basket. That was a lot easier and faster than the cumbersome hose and grapnel system, which required both aircraft to fly alongside each other after the complex 'crossing the hose' flight required by the reciever before catching the hose itself.

Wikipedia has a very infornative entry on in flight refuelling at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_refueling although it's a trifle US-centric to my mind.

[KJ_Lesnick]

The looped-hose and grapnel-line was not do-able with fighters as I understand it as it required multiple crew to do the job.  However, the same company that conceived of looped hose and grapnel line came up with the probe and drogue when the desire to refuel fighters came along so it's plausible that if the need arose, the development would progress earlier.

Anybody got a time-table estimate?

[PR19_Kit]

FRL supplied the 'production' hose and grapnel systems for the Tiger Force in 1945, and they made the first probe and droque refuelling in 1951. That's a development time of 6 years, but you'd imagine that under wartime conditions they could probably have done it faster, say 4 years?

[KJ_Lesnick]

PR19 Kit

FRL supplied the 'production' hose and grapnel systems for the Tiger Force in 1945, and they made the first probe and droque refuelling in 1951.

I thought FRL was using the looped hose and grapnel system back in 1938 or 1939, and the USAAF looked into it in '42?

That's a development time of 6 years, but you'd imagine that under wartime conditions they could probably have done it faster, say 4 years?

So the development would be 4 years faster or 4 years in length?

[PR19_Kit]

The Tiger Force application was the last time the RAF looked at looped hose, is what I meant.

I guessed it would have taken them 4 years to develop the probe and drogue system, but who can say when they would have started without knowing the demands and the conditions at the time?

[KJ_Lesnick]

Was the looped-hose and grapnel system known by the US in 1938 or were we only made aware of it later?

[PR19_Kit]

Sir Alan Cobham's work on IFR was wholly public and wasn't subjected to any security restrictions. His first demonstration flights took place in 1935 so if the US didn't know about it then they weren't watching hard enough.....

[KJ_Lesnick]

PR19_Kit

So, hypothetically if the US realized the benefit in Cobham's system in 1938; then pushed for a system for refueling escort-fighters both us and the Brits could have had the means to refuel fighters/bombers in mid air by 1942 or 1943 (war started in 1939 + 4 = 1943)?