UK to revert to F-35B

[Thorvic]

Just a note to say the UK has formally switched back to the F-35B STOVL version (no jump jet as many crap journalists refer to it) from the F-35C CATOBAR version. The bad news is that we don't know many many they are ordering till 2015 or if if it will mean two carriers are possible (more likely to be one active/one Refit-Reserve).

Anyway there are plenty of pro/cons discussions on various Aviation & Naval forums discussing the merits of either type, what a farce the government has made of the procurement and the pitfalls were now going to have to face. So please use those discussion forums to express you opinions (i will be  ). This thread is to discuss the modelling aspect of it  , so rants and raves about the switch will not be appreciated.

The bad news is my STOVL HMS Queen Elizabeth is no longer a Project Cancelled but a future capability so more a real or What-if model.
The good news is that the F-35B is the only variant that's actually been kitted so far in 1/72 scale by Fujimi so now's the chance to model them in either the new scheme as used on the first UK aircraft BK-1 with the light grey to represent the UK roundel & fin flash, or use a mix of SHAR markings to represent FAA F-35B (RAF ones could be tricky as 4 sqdn is the hawk T2 shadow sqdn, 3 is now a Typhoon unit and 1 is slated to be the next Typhoon unit !!!)

[Weaver]

Well since the carrier's supposed to be a "convertible" design, from ski-jump to cats, maybe you should make another one with interchangable parts. Then you can have the News Channel on at model shows and change the configuration two or three times during the day as the latest "decision" gets reversed, reviewed, un-reversed, re-reviewed etc....

[sandiego89]

I think the air wing with the STOVL carrier will make for slightly more interesting WHIF potentials.  A deck full of F-35C's would be rather boring.  For modeling purposes I think the "B" is more interesting with all it's doors and nozzles.   I would have liked to see E-2's, C-2's and (E)F-18's in Fleet Air Arm markings.

For a Cat and trap carrier I could see: F-35C and Merlin.  Potential whifs for E-2 Hawkeye and EF-18 Growler.  Maybe a F-18E in the 5 wet configuration for tanking.  

For a STOVL carrier I could see potential Whifs: F-35B, V-22 Osprey for COD and AEW or Merlin AEW, Wildcat, plus all sorts of helos for amphibious ops. I think the most interesting layout for a model would be for a contingency op with F-35B, Merlin, Chinook. Lynx/Wildcat and Apaches all on deck at the same time.  

For the F-35B I see some possible WHIFs:
- Wing stores could be interesting.  How about a buddy re-fueling pods and EF-18 jamming pods?  Anti-radar missiles.
- Buddy Refueling- tanker complete with overflowing beer stein markings! 
- Conformal tanks.  
- Two seater- training or high workload tasks. Harrier style or maybe side by side seating like the Lightning or Hunter?  The front fuselage is rather broad, and side by side may be easier for center of gravity concerns.  
- Stripped down B with intake doors removed.  Reduces stealth but less complexity and weight.  

I want the "Fist of the Fleet" emblem back on display.   

[deathjester]

what a farce the government has made of the procurement

You can say that again - and still they won't admit they were wrong.

I was at an airshow about ten years ago, and LM had a stand there with a full size mock-up of the 'B'.  I got chatting to the rep there, and he explained to me how versatile the STOVL version would be.  At the time, the design included the capability to use the lift fan drive system to run various aux. systems, such as internal jammers, which I thought was pretty neat.

Besides, the STOVL version could probably also land Harrier style on Pierced Steel Planks in clearings, just like during the Cold War - can't do that with the 'C' !!

[Freightdog862]

Hey chaps, does anyone know of a supplier was has the Fujimi kis in stock? HLJ are all sold out, I stumbled on one on ehobbies in the states, but there 'export' shipping module took the price from £25.99 to over £70!

Thanks, Colin, currently F-35less
 

[deathjester]

Hey chaps, does anyone know of a supplier was has the Fujimi kis in stock? HLJ are all sold out, I stumbled on one on ehobbies in the states, but there 'export' shipping module took the price from £25.99 to over £70!

Thanks, Colin, currently F-35less
 

Christ - are they doing the full sized mockups then!?!

[royabulgaf]

@Weaver-  According to the articles I read, the switch to the B was made due to the additional expense of installing catapaults.  Penny wise and Pound foolish.  No E-2, no C-2, no interoperability with USN and French carrier aircraft.  The ships are built in the hopes of getting a problematic STOVL aircraft with a constantly receding in-service date and shrinking capability. 

[Go4fun]

Sometimes it is amazing to think the various governments have let the fighter aircraft develop beyond fabric wings and 4 cylinder engines.

[Thorvic]

@Weaver-  According to the articles I read, the switch to the B was made due to the additional expense of installing catapaults.  Penny wise and Pound foolish.  No E-2, no C-2, no interoperability with USN and French carrier aircraft.  The ships are built in the hopes of getting a problematic STOVL aircraft with a constantly receding in-service date and shrinking capability. 

You should read the official statement yesterday, yes the Carrier conversion was more than originally expected, but it was the delays to the F-35C putting the in service dates back to the mid 20's that was the deciding factor.

[Thorvic]

Hey chaps, does anyone know of a supplier was has the Fujimi kis in stock? HLJ are all sold out, I stumbled on one on ehobbies in the states, but there 'export' shipping module took the price from £25.99 to over £70!

Thanks, Colin, currently F-35less
 

PM sent re:F-35B kits

[PR19_Kit]

EVERYTHING costs more 'than was originally expected'! Every single procurement programme has over-run, sometimes by factors of more than ten, resulting in programmes being reduced, delayed and quite often being cancelled altogether.

One can only conclude that the suppliers a) Lie through their teeth b) are USELESS at estimating costs or b) have no methods of cost control in place. And of course that the respective Government, of whatever natioanallity you chose, are totally gullible.

[deathjester]

EVERYTHING costs more 'than was originally expected'! Every single procurement programme has over-run, sometimes by factors of more than ten, resulting in programmes being reduced, delayed and quite often being cancelled altogether.

One can only conclude that the suppliers a) Lie through their teeth b) are USELESS at estimating costs or b) have no methods of cost control in place. And of course that the respective Government, of whatever natioanallity you chose, are totally gullible.

d) all of the above!

What I don't understand is why, when they set the budget for these things, they don't pay in advance then there won't be any cost overruns, and a supplier that fails to deliver is penalised - not paid more for the privelige!!

[albeback]

EVERYTHING costs more 'than was originally expected'! Every single procurement programme has over-run, sometimes by factors of more than ten, resulting in programmes being reduced, delayed and quite often being cancelled altogether.

One can only conclude that the suppliers a) Lie through their teeth b) are USELESS at estimating costs or b) have no methods of cost control in place. And of course that the respective Government, of whatever natioanallity you chose, are totally gullible.

Absolutely - ALL of the above. It would appear then that our previous government DID after all make the correct choice? I do however have 2 questions. Do the Navy and RAF actually WANT this version ( although I do appreciate that, as far as politicians are concerned, the wishes of the user are irrelevant!) and, is the F-35B no longer under threat of cancellation?

[deathjester]

EVERYTHING costs more 'than was originally expected'! Every single procurement programme has over-run, sometimes by factors of more than ten, resulting in programmes being reduced, delayed and quite often being cancelled altogether.

One can only conclude that the suppliers a) Lie through their teeth b) are USELESS at estimating costs or b) have no methods of cost control in place. And of course that the respective Government, of whatever natioanallity you chose, are totally gullible.

Absolutely - ALL of the above. It would appear then that our previous government DID after all make the correct choice? I do however have 2 questions. Do the Navy and RAF actually WANT this version ( although I do appreciate that, as far as politicians are concerned, the wishes of the user are irrelevant!) and, is the F-35B no longer under threat of cancellation?

Who knows...(sigh)

I wouldn't say the previous government made any correct decisions!  I reckon that the  F-35B will prove more tactically flexible, but my main beef with the program is that we can design + build perfectly good naval aircraft all by ourselves!  (See HS P1154)

[Thorvic]

EVERYTHING costs more 'than was originally expected'! Every single procurement programme has over-run, sometimes by factors of more than ten, resulting in programmes being reduced, delayed and quite often being cancelled altogether.

One can only conclude that the suppliers a) Lie through their teeth b) are USELESS at estimating costs or b) have no methods of cost control in place. And of course that the respective Government, of whatever natioanallity you chose, are totally gullible.

Absolutely - ALL of the above. It would appear then that our previous government DID after all make the correct choice? I do however have 2 questions. Do the Navy and RAF actually WANT this version ( although I do appreciate that, as far as politicians are concerned, the wishes of the user are irrelevant!) and, is the F-35B no longer under threat of cancellation?

Who knows...(sigh)

I wouldn't say the previous government made any correct decisions!  I reckon that the  F-35B will prove more tactically flexible, but my main beef with the program is that we can design + build perfectly good naval aircraft all by ourselves!  (See HS P1154)

We can design, its the building bit we stumble at, it would be nice to have seen an 1154 or 1216 completed and used as a technology demonstrator. Same could be said of the Naval Typhoon, if BAE Systems had converted a prototype to a Naval version to prove the concept then i suspect we may well have seen the F-35 dropped.