Re: NöNö Bärs Shipyard (WIP: Dutch Coast Defense ship, still unnamed)

[Rheged]

This sounds extremely promising!

[NARSES2]

Looking forward to this, looks a neat kit.

Back to reality: i once read that some historians say that Romans had the technology to build steam engines but did not put all the required ends together to create one. So for this WhatIf, I will take a Roman warship of 50BC (only Roman warship I found) and modify it with a simply steam engine:

I think it was a Greek scientist who first demonstrated the power of steam ? Yup checking my books it was Heron of Alexandria who was the first person to demonstrate a very basic steam engine, at least in the West. I don't think anyone thought about it's practical use ? Back then scientists didn't dirty their hands with such things, it was all about the search for knowledge.

[nönöbär]

Looking forward to this, looks a neat kit.

Back to reality: i once read that some historians say that Romans had the technology to build steam engines but did not put all the required ends together to create one. So for this WhatIf, I will take a Roman warship of 50BC (only Roman warship I found) and modify it with a simply steam engine:

I think it was a Greek scientist who first demonstrated the power of steam ? Yup checking my books it was Heron of Alexandria who was the first person to demonstrate a very basic steam engine, at least in the West. I don't think anyone thought about it's practical use ? Back then scientists didn't dirty their hands with such things, it was all about the search for knowledge.

Yes, there was the Heron-Ball (or Aeolipile) was this thing, but it was more or less just for entertainment. But Heron also mentioned to use it to open temple doors automatically.
I was thinking about something else, don't find the source of it right now, where some historians were talking about the use of "real" steam engines in Roman times. one of the issues was that Romans did not use coal in a wider way. Have to see if I find this article again.

[NARSES2]

Ah, right.

I suppose the Roman's would have use charcoal as the fuel ? One of the practical problems would have been the ability to carry much fuel ? Although the early steam powered ironclads had a similar problem.

[nönöbär]

Ah, right.

I suppose the Roman's would have use charcoal as the fuel ? One of the practical problems would have been the ability to carry much fuel ? Although the early steam powered ironclads had a similar problem.

Yes, charcoal would be the first choice. But of course, this one has not so much energy than real coal.

The idea for the ship is - remove the oars, add a small "superstructure" and have at least a partly visible boiler. Plus funnel of course. The sails will still be there.

And I have to find a solution for the crew. There are no roman figures in this size, so the best I found so far is to get some Z-Scale model train figures and modify them.

[Joe C-P]

I have had a similar idea, based on the USS Olympia cruiser to give it that old-tyme look and feel, with steam-powered ballistae and catapults.

I like the concept of an early steam engine on a bireme/trireme!  Perhaps powering a paddlewheel, or how about an Archimedes screw?

As for reality, beyond the fuel requirements they would also have needed to create large objects in iron, and I'm uncertain how large the Romans went with their iron.  Perhaps bronze might have worked?  But still, making large, steam-tight cylinders and piping is major requirement for building workable steam engines.

[ChernayaAkula]

Way cool idea! 

<...> One of the practical problems would have been the ability to carry much fuel ? Although the early steam powered ironclads had a similar problem.

<...>
The idea for the ship is - remove the oars, add a small "superstructure" and have at least a partly visible boiler. Plus funnel of course. The sails will still be there. <...>

Sails for cruise, steam for combat?  Ramming speed! 

[rickshaw]

Pratchett in "Small Pyramids" as the philosophers of Ephebe making use of a Hero of Alexandra steam engine to run a small boat and a siege "Turtle"...   

[NARSES2]

Way cool idea! 

<...> One of the practical problems would have been the ability to carry much fuel ? Although the early steam powered ironclads had a similar problem.

<...>
The idea for the ship is - remove the oars, add a small "superstructure" and have at least a partly visible boiler. Plus funnel of course. The sails will still be there. <...>

Sails for cruise, steam for combat?  Ramming speed! 

That's my thoughts, save the steam for that extra "push" just when you need it.

[NARSES2]

And I have to find a solution for the crew. There are no roman figures in this size, so the best I found so far is to get some Z-Scale model train figures and modify them.

There used to be, probably still are, lots of wargames figures in 1/300 and a smaller range in 1/200, although they were primarily modern period armour and figures. 1/300 might just fit ? They used to be white metal but I see from a quick look that Shapeways do some now.

[nönöbär]

And I have to find a solution for the crew. There are no roman figures in this size, so the best I found so far is to get some Z-Scale model train figures and modify them.

There used to be, probably still are, lots of wargames figures in 1/300 and a smaller range in 1/200, although they were primarily modern period armour and figures. 1/300 might just fit ? They used to be white metal but I see from a quick look that Shapeways do some now.

Thx, I had not Shapeways in mind. I tihnk 1/300 would also fit, then the ship would be a bit bigger. I think modifying the Z-scale figures could be a bit of a pain in this size.

[nönöbär]

I like the concept of an early steam engine on a bireme/trireme!  Perhaps powering a paddlewheel, or how about an Archimedes screw?

I thought about paddlewheels first, but they seem to be a bit unpractical. But I like your idea of the Archimedes screw, this would make sense.

[zenrat]

How about steam powered oars.  Linkages would be a mite complex but i'm sure you can work it out.

[NARSES2]

How about steam powered oars.  Linkages would be a mite complex but i'm sure you can work it out.

You've just made me think of a comedy film where one of the slave oarsman becomes so strong that he rowed alone on one bank of oars whilst all the other's are on the other bank. Something weird in my brain suggests it was a Three Stooges film ? Can't be, because I don't think I've seen any unless it was Saturday Morning pictures ? The lone oarsman was a body builder type, wasn't Arnie was it ? I'll have to go digging now until I can find it 

[buzzbomb]

A while ago, I stumbles over a book series called "Kaiserkrieger", an alternate worlds / alternate history book series (I think only available in German). The plot is like this: just before WW1, an older small German Cruiser is somehow send back into time into the days of the Roman Empire of the year 300something. The series then tells the events of the ship and crew and how they integrated themselves into the roman empire of these days. Part of this is, how they started to integrate "modern" technology into this time, like building very simple steam ships.

Back to reality: i once read that some historians say that Romans had the technology to build steam engines but did not put all the required ends together to create one. So for this WhatIf, I will take a Roman warship of 50BC (only Roman warship I found) and modify it with a simply steam engine:

Read the same book,  I thought the concept was great, so glad you are doing something with it.

Although not quite the same thing, using the Roman warship out of canon can be fun.
Bit of a Thread hijack, but here is something I did with the Roman Warship lots of years ago, so much so, it might be fun to revisit it and give it a spruce up, this is my vision of an Fantasy Ice World IceRigger, probably somewhat based on the Rodney Mathews painting of his Ships series


I am really looking forward to what you do with this.