Two Torpedo Carrier aircraft

[tigercat]

Presumably the answer to limited numbers of aircraft particularly on British Aircraft carriers would be  planes that could carry twice the ordnance.

Now I'm guessing that the Skyraider could have carried at LEAST 2 torpedoes but were there any earlier aircraft that could have done the same I'm thinking possibly the Sea Mosquito.

[Dizzyfugu]

I think it depends much on the torpedo, and its size might also have been a limiting factor for both internal or external carriage.

Even a Fw 190 was tested as a torpedo carrier, and some late USN prototypes could carry as much as four torpedos. Other WWII types which come to my mind and which could carry two torpedos were the He 111 and Ju 88/188.

[Mossie]

A few US aircraft were coming on line late war that could lift three or four torpedoes.  Someone more knowledgeable than me might tell if they could fit on a British deck lift.

XTB2D-1 Skypirate
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=260.0

AM-1 Mauler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AM-1s_armed.jpg

[Logan Hartke]

The most I know of is 4 torpedoes carried internally in the AJ Savage, although I'd be surprised if these were ever carried operationally.  That era had passed by the time it entered service.  As Mossie points out, the US had numerous aircraft capable of carrying multiple torpedoes.  If you count experimental planes that never saw service, you'd probably be over a dozen different types.

Cheers,

Logan

[NARSES2]

The Martin Mauler could carry 2 torpedo's plus other ordnance. I assume the Skyraider could as well plus it's planned turbo prop successor the Skyshark

I just wonder if it was 2 torpedo's at one target or a torpedo at each of 2 targets.  Surely they would be ready for you if it was 2 targets ?

[Logan Hartke]

The Mauler could actually carry 3 plus other ordnance.  They were designed to be fired at a single target in most circumstances.  Most warships will take more than one and even if they wouldn't, it's insurance.

Cheers,

Logan

[tigercat]

Ok lets make it more of a challenge were there any british aircraft with suitable modifications that could carry 2 torpedoes and fit on a carrier.


What about say an up engined Wellesley say with a Merlin or Hercules or even a Centaurus

Of course the wing fold would need to be designed by a black dan origami master.

[Logan Hartke]

Well, for Lend-Lease aircraft, there are a few aircraft that could do it with modifications.  Both the Douglas Boston and North American Mitchell should be able to fly off of British carriers with two torpedoes, though neither would be able to fit on the elevators let alone in the hangars.  The Corsair could lift that weight, but it may need a good deal of deck or a catapult assist for the initial off the deck.  Also, I don't know where exactly you would have to put the torpedoes, but you could probably make it work.



Now for pure British aircraft?  That gets harder.  Few could carry that weight.  The Sea Mosquito was only rated for single torpedo and with all the extra weight of the naval gear, 2 would be pushing it.  The same could be said for any other British carrier plane that comes to mind.  Maybe conversions of some bombers for a Doolittle-type raid.  I think the Albemarle is the most likely candidate there.

The problem is, to carry 2+ torpedoes, you generally need a pretty big plane.  For big planes, you need big carriers, which the British didn't have.  There's a fantastic chart in Vanguard to Trident that highlights this, showing how few late- and post-war British carrier planes could even operate off of British carriers.

At first, some of the Bristol twins seem perfect, but they just didn't have the "oompf" too get off the deck with two fish.  Maybe something like the Beaufighters with Griffons navalised might have had a chance.

Here's a crazy idea: How about an uprated "Fleet Shadower" aircraft for Taranto-style night attacks on enemy harbors.  Maybe powered by Gipsy Queens or Armstrong Siddeley Cheetahs or even something bigger?  Change to Bristol Mercury engines and just do two of them?  Lots of possibilities, though it's admittedly far-fetched.





Cheers,

Logan

[PR19_Kit]

How about a navalised Brigand? LOTS of power and big wings, and a crew of three, enough to aim the things properly and fly the aircraft too.

[Logan Hartke]

How about a navalised Brigand? LOTS of power and big wings, and a crew of three, enough to aim the things properly and fly the aircraft too.

That was my thought, too, but the Brigand was only rated for two 1,000 lb bombs.  Do you think it could lift that weight?

Thanks,

Logan

[pyro-manic]

Wiki says the Brigand could carry one 22" torpedo plus two 500lb bombs, or one 2000lb or two 1000lb bombs, so I think it's possibly more to do with layout of the pylons than actual weight limits. The Buckingham (the wings and tail of which were used for the Brigand) was specced for 4000lb, so I see no reason why the Brigand couldn't lift a similar load.

[jcf]

The famous photo of the Mauler with three torpedoes and a full load of 250lb bombs and cannon shells was a publicity stunt.
Yes, it was able to fly with that 10,648 lb load, but that was not a mission load. Max real load was 6,000 lbs.

An aircraft that could carry two torpedoes yet occupy the same space as the existing aircraft is problematic.
As already pointed out a twin seems the obvious choice, yet it brings the problem of increased size with
a commensurate reduction in total number of airframes. Then there are the logistical questions of how are they
carried; internal carriage = less drag but increased size, how much range and speed are you willing to sacrifice etc.

BSP: Fighters and Bomber 1935-1950, Chapter 9: RAF and Fleet Air Arm Torpedo Bombers, deals with the real world
approaches to improving the breed, however it appears that none of the proposals were to carry more than one torpedo.
Even the Spearfish, Firebrand and B48 were only setup for a single torpedo, however give any one of them the aft-retracting
gear of the Skyraider or Mauler and you'd gain the room for more mounts.

The Brigand TF Mk.1 could carry a single torpedo on the fuselage centreline.


So, perhaps the answer isn't to change the aircraft but to change the torpedo. 

[tigercat]

what about the Gannet how much ordnance could that get off the ground? or slightly off topic a Skyraider fitted with a Double Mamba.

I guess the issues are 2

1) power
2 available space

You either need a very powerful single engine aircraft or  2 engines  coupled like the Gannet or a Twin  which would take up more space.

How about a Centaurus powered Barracuda? You have the power but not sure about the space

or a Centaurus powered Beaufort or Beaufighter.

You could probably pack the deck with Albemarles but they'd never fit in a hangar

Looks like currently the Brigand is in the lead.

[Mossie]

It could take two torpedoes.  I guess this was what Jon was alluding to, much shorter torpedoes were available post-war, I think the Gannet would have struggled to fit the WWII era fish into it's weapons bay.

[PR19_Kit]

or a Centaurus powered Beaufort or Beaufighter.

That pretty much is a Brigand.