1/350 scale USS Solace LHD Amphibious Hospital Ship

[seadude]

Getting there.  Did a little tweaking and here's what I came up with:

* Red = crane
* Green = large utility boats
* Purple = Balconies/sponsons for extra RHIB's
* Light blue = Captain's gig and motor launch.
* Yellow = Other lifeboats/whaleboats
* Orange = Optional extra area for another boat.



Now, on to the tough stuff........   Even though construction won't start on this project for quite a while, I'd like to get early opinions on what electronics and radars I should keep and what I should get rid of. What should and shouldn't a hospital ship have? Using the sample instruction pics below, please list what part numbers I should keep, and what part numbers to not use. A list of the WASP class specs:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/lhd-1-specs.htm

[Old Wombat]

It's a hospital ship. So, are you losing all weapon systems or are you retaining purely self-defence systems, & are they only passive or are you including active systems? (Remembering some anti-shipping weapons use active weapons-targetting systems as a lock-on beacon in passive approach mode.)

Standard navigation radar is, obviously, a must & I'd definitely retain the AN/SLQ-49 Chaff Bouys, MK-36 Chaff Launcher & AN/SLQ-25 NIXIE Towed Torpedo Countermeasures systems as passive defence systems. In this configuration, either the AN/SLQ-32(V)2 or AN/SLQ-32(V)3 Electronic Warfare (EW) system, too.

If you're going with active defence systems I'd lose the Sea Sparrows & rely on CIWS's, for example 4 x 20mm Mk 15 Phalanx &/or 4 x 30mm Goalpost systems. Plainly all-CIWS's is not an optimal defence package but they are purely self-defence systems, which means they should be mildly OK under the Geneva Conventions. In this configuration, definitely the AN/SLQ-32(V)3 Electronic Warfare (EW) system.

Oh, & you'll want an air-search radar to manage air traffic to & from the flight deck.



Guy

[kerick]

Hi, seadude!

You want to keep your small boats, especially the RHIB's, away from the propellor wash. So, side mounted balconies a little forward of the stern would be OK for the RHIB's (cut-away alcoves in the hull would be better, keeping them out of the worst of rough seas, but you could build angled splash/sea barriers to do that). The larger & less manoeuvrable boats would go in line with the superstructure, either in davits along the deck next to it (can you scratch-build some?) plus a couple behind the superstructure near the crane (remembering that the crane is also used for lifting supplies & needs some clear deck to put them on) or, similar to kerick's suggestion, put them in cradles along the hull under the flight deck on both sides, with winches on extendable tracks to lift them & move them clear of the cradles (couple of tiny I-beams or, at that scale, a couple of pieces of square/rectangular rod & you're done), they can be accessed via walkways (or hatches?) next to them. Cradle systems are preferred because they mean that the cables, pulleys & winches aren't constantly under strain (under strain they wear out faster) & they are easier to maintain (as maintenance can be done to both the lowering system & the boat with it still in the cradle (rather than having to drop the boat into the water or lift it onto the deck to do maintenance on the lowering system).



The system I was looking at was on a cruise ship. Don't forget you could add another crane.

Guy

Quick question for kerick: Was that sponson system a shipboard, or an oil rig evacuation system?

[Captain Canada]

I like it any way you look at it ! I like having boats hidden inside, or under sponsons. But at 350 scale seeing as much out in the open would also be good....

[seadude]

It's a hospital ship. So, are you losing all weapon systems or are you retaining purely self-defence systems, & are they only passive or are you including active systems? (Remembering some anti-shipping weapons use active weapons-targetting systems as a lock-on beacon in passive approach mode.)

Standard navigation radar is, obviously, a must & I'd definitely retain the AN/SLQ-49 Chaff Bouys, MK-36 Chaff Launcher & AN/SLQ-25 NIXIE Towed Torpedo Countermeasures systems as passive defence systems. In this configuration, either the AN/SLQ-32(V)2 or AN/SLQ-32(V)3 Electronic Warfare (EW) system, too.

If you're going with active defence systems I'd lose the Sea Sparrows & rely on CIWS's, for example 4 x 20mm Mk 15 Phalanx &/or 4 x 30mm Goalpost systems. Plainly all-CIWS's is not an optimal defence package but they are purely self-defence systems, which means they should be mildly OK under the Geneva Conventions. In this configuration, definitely the AN/SLQ-32(V)3 Electronic Warfare (EW) system.

Oh, & you'll want an air-search radar to manage air traffic to & from the flight deck.



Guy

You raise some interesting questions. From what I've read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_ship
........there is a brief sentence near the bottom that reads:

Armed vessels are disqualified from protection as a hospital ship under international law.

But, does that refer to "offensive" armament, or "defensive" armament, or both? I would tend to think it means both. But what if a hospital ship has been boarded by hostile forces? What then? Certainly the crew should have small arms to defend itself?
I am most likely not going to put ANY armaments, offensive or defensive, on my model ship. I "might" put the pedestal and gun shields in various locations for .50 cal guns, but not add the actual guns themselves. I want to build this model as "technically believeable" as possible and stick to international laws, i.e. no armaments.

As far as radars and electronic systems go, I would probably keep the air search, surface search, and navigation radars. I doubt a hospital ship would need an ECM system and chaff launchers. I don't know if "defensive armaments" like NIXIE, chaff, SLQ-32, etc. would disqualify a hospital from protection under international law. I'm guessing they would because the RFA Argus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Argus_%28A135%29
.......has defensive armament and is not protected from international law per this:

The British Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship RFA Argus would be a hospital ship were it not for its armaments.

I like it any way you look at it ! I like having boats hidden inside, or under sponsons. But at 350 scale seeing as much out in the open would also be good....

Putting extra boats inside might be nice, but in a real world situation, it's not practical as you have to move the boats to an exterior position which adds extra time.

[PR19_Kit]

'Armament' means what it says, there's no distinction between offensive or defensive.

If you're building a hospital ship and expecting it to be protected under the various international agreements you'll have put all the 'bang' bits ashore before she sails.

We've had this issue aired on here about 2 years ago already.

[Old Wombat]

Kit, do you know if chaff & NIXIE count as "weapons" or are they allowable as passive defensive measures?



Guy

[MikeD]

Kit, do you know if chaff & NIXIE count as "weapons" or are they allowable as passive defensive measures?



Guy

I'd assume not since they don't kill anyone (unless you drop them on someone, I suppose).

Weapons would only be something that goes bang, rather than things like chaff, flares and nixies which are just decoys.

[Old Wombat]

From Wikipedia article on RFA Argus;

Armament:    2 × Oerlikon 20 mm/85 KAA on GAM-BO1 mountings
                   4 × 7.62mm GPMGs
                   Seagnat chaff launchers

The Oerlikons & GPMG's are obviously weapons & cut her out of protected status but is the Seagnat considered a weapon for hospital ship classification?

And, seadude; No, the ship can't have small-arms on board & be called a protected hospital ship, just as an army Field Hospital, etc., can't have the injured troops weapons (not even locked in cabinets) & maintain its protected status. Oh, & the AN/SLQ-32(V)2 EW system is, from my understanding of the Global Security & Wiki write-ups, principally an attack warning system with either no or limited active-defence capabilities.

Even if you can't normally fit the weapons, I'd fit the mounts & support systems for the CIWS's, just in case you end up operating in a conflict where the enemy has the ability to attack your ship & has no qualms about contravening the Geneva Conventions & doing so, either by missile attack or boarding party, & you have the need to fit them.



Guy

[Captain Canada]

I like Guy's idea....makes sense to me

[seadude]

Ok, here's a good question......or riddle? If a hospital ship is not supposed to have any armaments of any kind, not even small arms to defend itself and the crew/patients, lest it violate international laws, then how do you explain the MERCY class hospital ship having an armory on board as shown in these two pics?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/images/t-ah-19-line3.gif
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/images/tah-19-image6.gif

[PR19_Kit]

Because, like HMS Argus mentioned above, it's not a 'real' hospital ship, and shouldn't carry the red crosses on the hull to signify it as such.

But we're probably talking about the USA playing fast and loose with the rules, what a surprise........

[MikeD]

Anyone know why hospital ships aren't allowed self defence weapons when land based medics (ie RAMC and even RAChD) are allowed to be armed to protect themselves and their patients?

[Old Wombat]

My understanding is that they're not but that combat medics bypass the rules for practicality in a combat environment where soldiers (on both sides) may be overcome by the "heat of the moment" & ignore the rules.


I'm currently reading a book on the battle for Papua New Guinea & the medical personnel (including stretcher bearers) were not armed. Unfortunately, most, if not all, of the medical personnel & wounded left behind, unarmed in accordance with the GC's, who were found by the Japanese were tortured &/or murdered.



Guy

[seadude]

In an earlier post somewhere, I had made the suggestion of putting extra boats and cranes at the rear of the LHD above the well deck gate where the Phalanx's and Seasparrow launcher originally are. But Old Wombat mentioned this would probably be a bad idea.
The below picture was my original idea. But if I don't put boats there, then what? Anybody got ideas for what I should use the back end for?