NMF for "Luft '46" Aircraft??

sequoiaranger · July 31, 2012, 07:54:31 AM

I don't think I have ever seen a "Luft '46" aircraft model in "natural metal finish". Why not??

The Americans disdained camo sometime in 1944, and bombers and fighters alike, in Europe and the Pacific, went "bare metal" (sometimes highly polished for that extra few MPH). Maybe it's because, like the British, the Germans were ALWAYS "scared" of exposing their aircraft while on the ground.

I would think the main reason for American nakedness was the complete AIR SUPREMACY over their bases, whether in Britain or the islands of the Pacific. Sure there was the occasional intruder, but seemingly not considered dangerous enough to warrant the extra manpower/supplies to laboriously paint the aircraft.

The "Luft '46" concept has always "thrown" me. That is, as much as I enjoy the designs and concepts of the paper projects of the Third Reich, the concept that the war could have persisted into 1946 seems to hinge on WAAAAAY too many MAJOR events not happening, or happening to the benefit of Germany instead of the Allies. Could "Bagration" have failed and the Germans held the Eastern Front? Would "Overlord" have been turned back, or stymied? Would the Strategic Bombing Offensive have had to be halted/delayed, and roaming hordes of Allied fighters over the Reich in search of ANY targets of opprtunity abandoned? Would the Atomic bomb have been a failure? Would production, especially American, of war goods NOT have been so prolific? Would Germany find an alternate, generous source of petroleum and distillation to keep going?? Seems like ALL the above would have had to happen for Germany to extend their war into 1946.

In my "Furashita's Fleet" timeline, I have the world more "resourceful" and aeronautics a "generation" more advanced (in war terms, about a year-and-a-half) going into the war. That allows "Luft '46"-type aircraft to appear DURING the timeframe of 1939-1945. (So I don't have to "explain" away all the above events).

I am assuming that the major "Luft '46" concept is that Germany would be in its last, desperate throes in the spring of 1946 as opposed to the spring of 1945, and thus many of the late-war projects that failed to manifest themselves would appear anyway. But one "indelible" image I have is an illustration of Ju-287 jet bombers, escorted by TA-183 jet fighters, being attacked by Gloster Meteors and Vampires over Britain (German Jet Genesis). Wouldn't Germany have to have had AERIAL SUPREMACY over their own territories (and presumably France, too) to enable that scenario to take place??

So why not "Natural Metal Finish" Luftwaffe aircraft, smugly showing off their "supremacy"? Just a thought!

pyro-manic · July 31, 2012, 08:08:55 AM

Underground airbases, tunnelled into the sides of mountains? No aircraft parked in the open, so no need for camouflage?

Dizzyfugu · July 31, 2012, 08:28:51 AM

I think it also has a lot to do what "we" are used to see or expect. German aircraft have AFAIK never been used in bare metal, and those at the end of the war (there were, for example, Me 262 in metal and primer/putty finish thrown into service, only with minimal national markings) were the result of the lack of materials. Could also be German thoroughness, though...

But when you write an alternative timeline, I'd assume that some bold colours (as in WWI) would be appropriate, too?

martinbayer · July 31, 2012, 08:31:44 AM

Alexander aka slava_trudu, who's also on this forum, did a NMF B&V P.208: http://ischo.livejournal.com/18274.html

Martin

Old Wombat · July 31, 2012, 09:45:20 AM

I think part of it is what a nation expects in war.

The British had NMF & silver painted planes, as well as other high-vis schemes, into the early/mid-30's.
As did the Americans until 1939/40, some until December 1941.
The Germans were great believers in camouflage from the beginning (with a few notable exceptions during WW1).

The British, as war approached, expected to be bombed & have enemy aircraft in their airspace.
Ditto the Germans.
The Americans did not.

During the early years of their involvement in the WW2 the Americans also went the camouflaged route.
Only once the Allies had near total control of European & Pacific airspace did the Americans go NMF on a large scale, & even then it wasn't universal.

The Brit's kept their camouflage because it had become ingrained habit by then & the Germans because they knew, without a doubt, that the enemy were going to be over-flying their airfields.

I also think the Americans looked on NMF as a psych-war weapon, too, because nothing says "Nyah! Nyah! Nyah! Nyah!" like a shiny-arsed aeroplane flying overhead.

For Luft' 46 to be feasible I don't think all that much had to change: "Overlord" almost was a disaster; if Hitler had not interfered with the issuing of sufficient winter gear early enough to the German forces in Russia; if better supplies of oil had come through from southern Russia; or if they had defeated the 8th Army in Africa & the Middle East.

And of those points of change above only the defeat of the 8th Army & access to Middle Eastern & a southern route to southern Russian oil fields would have given the Germans sufficient superiority to even think about going NMF on their aircraft.

royabulgaf · August 02, 2012, 01:46:01 PM

Hey, we are in the L46 universe building models of non-existant aircraft for our own amusement. Build what you want, how you want it.....
The thing that bugs me about the L46 er, cult is that most of the Luftwaffe '46 aircraft would be doing good to get into service by 1948. Half this stuff was still at the sketch on the back of a bar napkin stage.

pyro-manic · August 02, 2012, 02:22:46 PM

Another, much simpler alternative is to say that the paint factories got bombed, and supplies ran out! Perhaps it would only be a localised event (ie a particular batch of aircraft, or a certain region where the depleted paint stocks couldn't be replenished for a period) but you could see a number of NMF (or maybe NMF with a very basic "squiggle" camouflage to break up the outline a bit?) machines around. Maybe paint priority could be focussed on "forward-deployed" units, where attack by fighter bombers and tactical bombers would be more likely, and the "home defence" units based around major German cities would be left with nothing. So you'd end up with very battered or bare interceptors flying up to meet the bomber streams. Maybe even make it a statement - rather than leave a worn, patchy paintjob that makes the fighters look scruffy, strip them down and paint them with only anti-glare panels and crosses in black? Maybe red tails to back the swastikas?

Humm - in fact, much as I don't really care for most German designs, I might have to get a Dora/Ta152 etc. and do just that! It would be rather striking IMO.

dogsbody · August 02, 2012, 07:27:28 PM

Quote from: Old Wombat on July 31, 2012, 09:45:20 AM
I think part of it is what a nation expects in war.

The British had NMF & silver painted planes, as well as other high-vis schemes, into the early/mid-30's.
As did the Americans until 1939/40, some until December 1941.
The Germans were great believers in camouflage from the beginning (with a few notable exceptions during WW1).

The British, as war approached, expected to be bombed & have enemy aircraft in their airspace.
Ditto the Germans.
The Americans did not.

During the early years of their involvement in the WW2 the Americans also went the camouflaged route.
Only once the Allies had near total control of European & Pacific airspace did the Americans go NMF on a large scale, & even then it wasn't universal.

The Brit's kept their camouflage because it had become ingrained habit by then & the Germans because they knew, without a doubt, that the enemy were going to be over-flying their airfields.

I also think the Americans looked on NMF as a psych-war weapon, too, because nothing says "Nyah! Nyah! Nyah! Nyah!" like a shiny-arsed aeroplane flying overhead.

For Luft' 46 to be feasible I don't think all that much had to change: "Overlord" almost was a disaster; if Hitler had not interfered with the issuing of sufficient winter gear early enough to the German forces in Russia; if better supplies of oil had come through from southern Russia; or if they had defeated the 8th Army in Africa & the Middle East.

And of those points of change above only the defeat of the 8th Army & access to Middle Eastern & a southern route to southern Russian oil fields would have given the Germans sufficient superiority to even think about going NMF on their aircraft.

If the Italians hadn't been so inept in Greece, forcing the Germans to invade the Balkans and delaying the invasion of the U.S.S.R., from April 'til June.

Chris

dumaniac · August 04, 2012, 12:27:40 AM

WWII was a close run thing. If Germany had thrown the allies back at Normandy - if the panzers were deployed while Hitler slept (they didn't want to wake him up), it would have been at least another year (1945) before the allies could mount another invasion. Given the losses to bombers, the American public may have tired of the losses to their boys in a war not of their making - and the GB and USA may well have agreed to a "peace". Then German could have concentrated its resources on Russian. And USA would have focused on the Pacific.

Any paint scheme or none at all were be perfectly feasible for German in that scenario. So shiney metal camo could be very possible in Luft 46 or Luft 47.

go for your life on what makes you happy - this is WHATIF after all

sequoiaranger · August 04, 2012, 09:14:34 AM

>WWII was a close run thing. If Germany had thrown the allies back at Normandy - if the panzers were deployed while Hitler slept (they didn't want to wake him up), it would have been at least another year (1945) before the allies could mount another invasion.<

I would vociferously argue otherwise, but that is fodder for a different discussion on a different board.

>Any paint scheme or none at all were be perfectly feasible for German in that scenario. So shiney metal camo could be very possible in Luft 46 or Luft 47. Go for your life on what makes you happy - this is WHATIF after all<

Yes! By all means! I am just SLIGHTLY surprised that NMF "camo" and the more colorful WW I-style schemes are not seen more regularly on "Luft'46" type models.

NARSES2 · August 05, 2012, 01:59:55 AM

Quote from: sequoiaranger on August 04, 2012, 09:14:34 AM
Yes! By all means! I am just SLIGHTLY surprised that NMF "camo" and the more colorful WW I-style schemes are not seen more regularly on "Luft'46" type models.

I have a scenario where germany is rearmed by Britain and France in the mid/late 20's as a bulwark against the Soviet Union and I built a German Nuieport Delage in WWI green/purple Albatros scheme with full heraldry

Found a piccie

Radish · August 05, 2012, 07:41:13 AM

Oooo....that's nice!!

sequoiaranger · August 05, 2012, 07:44:50 AM

>German green/purple Albatros scheme with full heraldry<

NOW we're talkin'!!

dumaniac · August 06, 2012, 03:23:33 AM

Actually I am building an ME 109 biplane and was thinking of putting the lozenge pattern on it - but got talked out of it. I am going for a standard 1938 camo - but I feel the lozenge would be great on the topside

NARSES2 · August 06, 2012, 04:07:05 AM

Go for the lozenge. I intially started my retro Luftwaffe display season Starfighter with lozenge pattern wings but cocked it up so went green/purple instead.