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F-104 / F11F-1F Inlet Question

Started by KJ_Lesnick, August 14, 2012, 07:16:32 PM

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KJ_Lesnick

August 14, 2012, 07:16:32 PM
Did the inlet configuration of the F-104 play any role in the inlet design of the F11F-1F design?  The F11F-1F's inlets looked like the F-104 and F-35 and I remember it had some beneficial aerodynamic benefit.
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

kerick

#1
August 14, 2012, 08:11:11 PM
The F-104 had a very early variable inlet with the cone moving forward or back according to airspeed. It was considered so secret at the time that PR photos of the new fighter had aluminum covers over the inlets. These soon became known as "Flight Falsies".
I looked at photos of the F-104 and F-11 and I didn't see all that much resemblence. If you are thinking of building a whif of an advanced F-11 with the J-79 engine then F-104 intakes might work. I don't think they would be historicly accurate but thats never a problem on this site.
" Somewhere, between half true, and completely crazy, is a rainbow of nice colours "
Tophe the Wise

Mossie

#2
August 15, 2012, 01:31:44 AM
The Super Tigers inlet was quite different to the F-104.  It had a bump and perforations to remove the boundary layer.  Not quite a modern DSI as with the F-35 but had certain aspects of it.  I've got the Ginter book on the Super Tiger, I'll have a look and see if I can find any more info.

Photo borrowed from Secret Projects:
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

KJ_Lesnick

#3
August 17, 2012, 12:27:53 PM
Quote from: kerick on August 14, 2012, 08:11:11 PMThe F-104 had a very early variable inlet with the cone moving forward or back according to airspeed.
Wait, it was my impression that the inlet was fixed geometry, but multi-shock.  IIRC, the spike was designed to be purposefully oversized so it would work well at low-speeds, and the excess air would tend to route around the primary flow-path out the back in order to reduce base-drag and increase nozzle-efficiency?  From what I remember, there wasn't any variable-geometry in that (which makes it exceptionally creative)

You might be thinking of the A-12 and it's family (YF-12/SR-71/M-21) -- their inlet spikes moved aft as the mach number increased beyond a given value and continued moving back from that point.  Far as I know at cruise speed, they were either nearly all the way back or all the way back.  As you slowed down the reverse would occur.


Quote from: Mossie on August 15, 2012, 01:31:44 AMThe Super Tigers inlet was quite different to the F-104.  It had a bump and perforations to remove the boundary layer.  Not quite a modern DSI as with the F-35 but had certain aspects of it.

I was simply wondering if the design had been inspired in anyway by the F-104 (which flew earlier). 

QuoteI've got the Ginter book on the Super Tiger, I'll have a look and see if I can find any more info.

Thank you.
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

kerick

#4
August 17, 2012, 07:04:01 PM
I stand corrected. The intakes were fixed. I should look things up before typing about them. The part about the "flight falsies" did exist.
" Somewhere, between half true, and completely crazy, is a rainbow of nice colours "
Tophe the Wise

Mossie

#5
August 18, 2012, 08:06:17 AM
Quote from: KJ_Lesnick on August 17, 2012, 12:27:53 PM
Quote from: Mossie on August 15, 2012, 01:31:44 AMThe Super Tigers inlet was quite different to the F-104.  It had a bump and perforations to remove the boundary layer.  Not quite a modern DSI as with the F-35 but had certain aspects of it.

I was simply wondering if the design had been inspired in anyway by the F-104 (which flew earlier). 

QuoteI've got the Ginter book on the Super Tiger, I'll have a look and see if I can find any more info.

Thank you.

I've had a look and there's not much about the intake design, definitely nothing about any influence from the F-104.  I would be surprised if there was any direct relationship being that the Super Tigers inlet design was fairly unique.

The new inlets and larger ducts increased duct efficiency, as well as reducing supersonic drag to a higher degree than expected from tunnel tests.  Several bump designs were flown, the final one was enlarged and can be seen in the pic above (the paint has conveniently flaked off with age to show the wooden bump construction underneath).  That's all there is I'm afraid.
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

KJ_Lesnick

#6
August 18, 2012, 05:14:57 PM
Quote from: Mossie on August 18, 2012, 08:06:17 AMI've had a look and there's not much about the intake design, definitely nothing about any influence from the F-104.  I would be surprised if there was any direct relationship being that the Super Tigers inlet design was fairly unique.
Understood

The new inlets and larger ducts increased duct efficiency, as well as reducing supersonic drag to a higher degree than expected from tunnel tests.[/quote]
Why wasn't this used on other designs?  It seemed a good feature?

QuoteThat's all there is I'm afraid.
Did it say when they started doing research into this, and whether the idea originated from NACA/NASA, Grumman, etc?
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.
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